Was Bahaullah a well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran?

April 18, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/was-bahaullah-a-well-grounded-in-knowledge-people-of-quran.219912/#post-6069492

#1 paarsurrey wrote:

Was Bahaullah a well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran?

Was he, please? Wasn’t he, please?
Thread open to every religion believing or no-religion people.

Regards

#6 paarsurrey

“I agree with Baha’u’llah when He says none has the true authority to interpret the Quran except God Himself.”

Please quote from Bahaullah where he said those words in clear terms:

  1. in original language the book was written if possible,
  2. not a collection of his quotes compiled from his works, to know the exact context of his statement.
  3. Of course then the translation could be given for everybody’s understanding.

Regards

#7 paarsurrey

Well, perhaps one must have had only an impression that Bahaullah said such clear words. Right, please?
Please ponder over these two verses of Quran:

  1. AYAH al-Imran 3:7
Arabic هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
Literal
(Word by Word) He (is) the One Who revealed to you the Book, of it (are) Verses absolutely clear – they (are) the foundation (of) the Book, and others (are) allegorical. Then as for those in their hearts (is) perversity – [so] they follow what (is) allegorical of it, seeking [the] discord and seeking its interpretation. And none knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in [the] knowledge, they say, “We believe in it. All (is) from near our Lord.” And not will take heed except those people of intelligence.John Medows Rodwell  He it is who hath sent down to thee “the Book.” Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; – these are the basis of the Book – and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God. And the stable in knowledge say, “We believe in it: it is all from our Lord.” But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding.

N J Dawood (2014)* It is He who has revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are precise in meaning ― they are the foundation of the Book ― and others ambiguous. Those whose hearts are infected with disbelief observe the ambiguous part, so as to create dissension by seeking to explain it. But no one knows its meaning except God. Those who are well-grounded in knowledge say: ‘We believe in it: it is all from our Lord. Yet none remembers but those that are of good sense possessed.
al-Imran 3:7
* A.Jew

2.AYAH an-Nisa` 4:162
Arabic  لَّٰكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلَاةَ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ أُولَٰئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا
Literal
(Word by Word) But the ones who are firm in the knowledge among them and the believers believe in what (is) revealed to you and what was revealed before you. And the ones who establish the prayer and the ones who give the zakah and the ones who believe in Allah and the Day the Last – those, We will give them a great reward.
John Medows Rodwell But their men of solid knowledge, and the believers who believe in that which hath been sent down to thee, and in what hath been sent down before thee, and who observe prayer, and pay the alms of obligation, and believe in God and the latter day, – these! we will give them a great reward.
N J Dawood (2014) But those of them that are well grounded in knowledge, and the believers who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you; who attend to their prayers and render the alms levy and believe in God and the Last Day ― on these We shall bestow a rich recompense.
an-Nisa` 4:162

There is no need to go out of Quran for meaning of Quran to tradition (Shia and or Sunni or whatever), if these verses and their verses in the context are pondered over, one gets clear that the “well-grounded people” are those who get guidance/knowledge from within the whole of the book- Quran, not just a part/verse of it. And it is reasonable. Right, please?

Perhaps while writing/dictating Iqan, Bahaulllah was in a hurry and as I understand most of the time, he hastened to Shia tradition, as he was groomed into it and naturally knew little of Sunni tradition. Or perhaps it suited his purpose.He has his limitations, of course. Never-mind, his followers should not be in a hurry, there are some/many of them here in the forum, they are welcome to prove their point of view from within the Quran. Right, please?

Regards​

Who are the well-grounded in knowledge people of Quran?

April 16, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-4#post-6068801

#74 paarsurrey, 

A friend on forum wrote: 

  1. Bahaullah did not claim in express,clear and unequivocal manner in Kitab-i-Iqan that he was a messenger/prophet of G-d. Did he, please? If yes, kindly quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
  2. The well grounded people are those:
    • who have studied/pondered over Quran intently from the context verses
    • as well as from other places in Quran
    • and not from elsewhere.

Sorry, we cannot accept hegemony of Bahaullah and or Shoghi Effendi* on Quran, unreasonably and haphazardly, please.

Regards

_____________
*Shoghí Effendí did not quote the Quranic text in Arabic, he quoted the translation of Quran verses sometimes, if not most of the times, changing the Rodwell’s translation he opted, capitalizing the initial letters of the words or uncapitalizing them against the norms.

Shoghí Effendí erred?

April 15, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-4#post-6067626

A Bahai friend said: 

#66 paarsurrey wrote.

I observe that a verse of Quran has been incorrectly translated by Shoghí Effendí:

Qur’án 55:5. [ Back To Reference] incorrect translation done in Iqan.

Even as He saith : “Verily, the sun and the moon are both condemned to the torment of infernal fire.”24
Arabic Text of the verse is:
اَلشَّمۡسُ وَ الۡقَمَرُ بِحُسۡبَانٍ
Correct translations:
The sun and the moon run their courses according to a fixed reckoning.

Edward Henry Palmer:
The sun and the moon have their appointed time;
George Sale
The sun and the moon run their courses according to a certain rule:
John Medows Rodwell
The Sun and the Moon have each their times,
N J Dawood (2014)
The sun and the moon pursue their ordered course.
ar-Rahman 55:5

This needs to be corrected, please.
Regards

 

The friend on the forum commented thus: 

#70 paarsurrey replied:

“Arabic word “Husbán,” which means Hell”

  1. Please quote from a reputed Arabic lexicon for “Husban” meaning hell.
  2. IslamAwakened is a site which gives 50+ translations of Quran rendered by Shia/Sunni/Non-Muslim ect. scholars, none of them agrees with the translation of “Husban” as Hell.
  3. When Shoghi Effindi was following Rodwell translation, then why leave it ?

Regards

 

#72paarsurrey replied thus: 

Please quote from a renowned Lexicon for the meaning of the word “Husban” and its usage from Arabic poetry and or prose.

It is Quran that judges* every tradition, Quran is not judged by any tradition whether Sunni or Shia or whatever etc.

Regards
_____________
*AYAH at-Tariq 86:13
Arabic[​IMG] إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلٌ فَصْلٌ [​IMG]
Transliteration[​IMG] Innahu laqawlun faslun [​IMG]
Transliteration-2 innahu laqawlun faṣlun [​IMG]
Literal
(Word by Word) Indeed, it (is) surely a Word decisive,
Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
Arthur John Arberry[​IMG] surely it is a decisive word; [​IMG]
Edward Henry Palmer[​IMG] Verily, it is indeed a distinguishing speech, [​IMG]
George Sale[​IMG] Verily this is a discourse distinguishing good from evil; [​IMG]
John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] That this Koran is a discriminating discourse, [​IMG]
N J Dawood (2014) this¹ is a discerning utterance,
at-Tariq 86:13

*Quran 7:186
فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Literal
(Word by Word) So in what statement/story/hadith after this will they believe?

John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] And in what other book will they believe who reject the Koran?
al-A`raf 7:185

Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

April 15, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/which-is-%E2%80%9Cthe-first-the-greatest-and-mightiest-of-all-books%E2%80%9D.219153/

#1 paarsurrey wrote:

Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

Thread open for all people who belong to a religion or no-religion, please.

Regards
___________

Bahaullah writes:

“Gracious God! In His Book, which He hath entitled “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,”—the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books—He prophesied His own martyrdom. In it is this passage: “O thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed myself wholly for Thee; I have accepted curses for Thy sake; and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient Witness unto me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days!”

Page 231 Kitab-i-Iqan or the “Book of Certitude” written by Bahaullah.

 

Did Bahaullah claim that Iqan is Revelation from God?

April 14, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/#post-6039284

Post #17paarsurrey wrote:

I have not yet inquired about when did Bahaullah claim/declare about his stations as ascribed to him by the Bahaism people. They have a right to believe or not to believe anything about anybody with or without any arguments, I have no objection to that.

I repeat my humble submission again:

My interest is only in Bahaullah , his claims and the arguments given by him in support of his claims.

I am reading Kitab-e-Iqan by Bahaullah and it occurred to me that Bahaullah does not say in it in clear and unequivocal terms about the things written in this book that these has been revealed on/to him by/from G-d. Right, please?
I will appreciate if somebody gives quotes from Iqan, if I am wrong.

Regards

#20 

Post #33 paarsurrey wrote:

I asked a simple question and our friend (a Bahai) has given a simple answer confirming “Bahaullah did NOT say in clear terms that, the Book of Iqan is a revelation from God.”

I don’t know as to why other friend could not confirm it.
They may please note it, and if they like it there is no harm in confirming it. Right, please?
No compulsion though.

Regards

Bahaullah “Sender of the Messengers”?!!!

April 12, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-happens-after-death.214260/page-5#post-5846288

Post #94 paarsurrey

“The UHJ cannot change the “original writings” of Baha’u’llah”

 

I agree with one that UHJ (or Abdul Baha or Shoghí Effendí) cannot change the original writings of Bahaullah.

Courtesy our friend #23 A bahai friend:

Bahaullah proclaimed that in Reality, He was the Author of All previous Religions, and that He had sent all prophets of the Past, thus, He is the One who can explain His own Books that He had previously revealed. I quote Bahaullah:

” …Hearken unto the Call of Husayn[2] Who hath been incarcerated in the Prison Fortress of ’Akká by reason of that which the hands of the heedless have wrought. If one were to question them,[3]“by what reason have ye imprisoned Him?”, they would reply: “Verily, He hath come with a new Shariah and this new Shariah doth not accord with the Law under which we have been. To this matter testifieth our Book which is called the Qur’án, a Book that is from God,[4] the Lord of all mankind. See that which the All-Merciful hath revealed therein: ‘Verily He[5] is the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets.’”[6]

To this We reply: “Indeed thou speaketh the truth. We do testify that through Him,[7]Messengership[8] and Prophethood[9] have both been sealed and any one claiming after Him this most exalted station is in manifest error.[10] Nevertheless, O Questioner! Hearken unto My voice which sayeth: “Open thine eyes that thou mayest behold the Most Great Beauty,[11] through Whom speaketh the Lord of divine decree. By God! Through Him the ‘Hour’[12] hath appeared, and the ‘Resurrection’[13] hath come to pass, and the ‘Moon’[14]hath been cleft asunder and thou wouldst behold all in a ‘continuing Regeneration’ if thou be of them that possess insight.

“Verily, through His Advent hath come to be fulfilled the Advent about which glad tidings have been given by the Messengers of God from all eternity and there hath come to pass about which God hath revealed in the Qur’án: ‘On that Day they shall all rise before the Lord of mankind.’[15]Truly the Cycle of Prophethood hath been rolled up and He Who hath sent down the Prophets hath come, arrayed with a manifest and perspicuous sovereignty. ….” Unquote
Tablet to Hasan-i-Sháhábadí
That would make Bahaullah “mursil al-rusul” or “Sender of the Messengers”. Right, please?

Though I don’t agree with the understanding of Bahaullah, please.

Regards

#87  #86  #84 

#97

Bahaullah and Baghdad

April 11, 2019

 

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-2

Post #28  paarsurrey wrote:

“Sura 10:25
And God summons to the Abode of Peace, and He guides whomsoever He will to a straight path;
المسالك::The city of Baghdad; its description by Ibn Jubair
“UnquoteYou mean:
1>[10:25]
The likeness of the present life is only as water which We send down from the clouds, then there mingles with it the produce of the earth, of which men and cattle eat till, when the earth receives its ornature and looks beautiful and its owners think that they have power over it, there comes to it Our command by night or by day and We render it a field that is mown down, as if nothing had existed there the day before. Thus do We expound the Signs for a people who reflect.
[10:26]
And Allah calls to the abode of peace, and guides whom He pleases to the straight path.
The Holy Quran – Chapter: 10: Yunus

2>Baghdad (/ˈbæɡdæd, bəɡˈdæd/Arabic: بغداد‎ [baɣˈdaːd] ( listen)) is the capital of Iraq. The population of Baghdad, as of 2016, is approximately 8,765,000,[citation needed][note 1]making it the largest city in Iraq, the second largest city in the Arab world (after CairoEgypt), and the second largest city in Western Asia (after TehranIran).

Located along the Tigris River, the city was founded in the 8th century and became the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate. Within a short time of its inception, Baghdad evolved into a significant cultural, commercial, and intellectual center for the Islamic world. This, in addition to housing several key academic institutions (e.g., House of Wisdom), as well as hosting multiethnic and multireligious environment, garnered the city a worldwide reputation as the “Centre of Learning”.

Etymology
When the Abbasid caliph, al-Mansur, founded a completely new city for his capital, he chose the name Madinat al-Salaam or City of Peace. This was the official name on coins, weights, and other official usage, although the common people continued to use the old name.[19][20][unreliable source?] By the 11th century, “Baghdad” became almost the exclusive name for the world-renowned metropolis.
Baghdad – Wikipedia

The city (Baghdad) did not exist in the time of Muhammad. Its name, as I understand, was Baghdad in the time of Bahaullah also.

Isn’t one reading too much what is not meant in the text with certainty, please?

Regards

Bahaullah has revealed!

April 10, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-3#post-6061028

Post #56 paarsurrey, wrote:

I quote from Iqan:
“This station is also one of the signs of the Day of Revelation; even as it is said: “The abased amongst you, He shall exalt; and they that are exalted, He shall abase.” And likewise, He hath revealed in the Qur’án: “And We desire to show favour to those who were brought low in the land, and to make them spiritual leaders among men, and to make of them Our heirs.” 21 It hath been witnessed in this day how many of the divines, owing to their rejection of the Truth, have fallen into, and abide within, the uttermost depths of ignorance, and whose names have been effaced from the scroll of the glorious and learned. And how many of the ignorant who, by reason of their acceptance of the Faith, have soared aloft and attained the high summit of knowledge, and whose names have been inscribed by the Pen of Power upon the Tablet of divine Knowledge. Thus,“What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the Source of Revelation.” 22 Therefore, it hath been said: “To seek evidence, when the Proof hath been established is but an unseemly act, and to be busied with the pursuit of knowledge when the Object of all learning hath been attained is truly blameworthy.” Say O people of the earth! Behold this flamelike Youth that speedeth across the limitless profound of the Spirit, heralding unto you the tidings: “Lo: the Lamp of God is shining,” and summoning you to heed His Cause which, though hidden beneath the veils of ancient splendour, shineth in the land of ‘Iráq above the day-spring of eternal holiness.” Unquote
Bahá’í Reference Library – The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

The hint number 22* gives reference of verse of Qur’án 13:41, which is incorrect. The Quran correct verse of Quran is 13:39:
AYAH ar-Ra`d 13:39 يَمْحُو اللَّهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ

Sher Ali Translation:
“ALLAH effaces and establishes what HE wills, and with HIM is the source of all commandments.”
ar-Ra`d 13:39
This needs to be corrected.

Regards
______________
*It is hint #111 , Qur’án 13:41. ↩ in another English translation of Iqan by Shoghi Effendi.

OOOOOOOOOOO

Also please read the following posts:

#57,#58,

Bahaullah has revealed!

April 9, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/

Post #1 paarsurrey wrote:

Bahaullah has revealed!

The above sentence means Bahaullah has/had told/written something. It does not mean that God has told something to Bahaullah.
Am I correct? Please.

Thread open to everybody of any religion or no-religion, please.

Regards

OOOOOOOOOO

Please click the post # and read my posts in the thread.

Post #3 paarsurrey wrote:
1. The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library – The Bahá’í Faith
https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/

treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi …

2. Lawh-i Ibn-i Dhi’b, Lawh-i Shaykh (Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, ESW), `Akka, latter part and perhaps all revealed between 27 June and early August, 1891 (see Ra’fati, in Pazhuheshnameh 2:1).
Mentioned as “the last outstanding Tablet revealed by the pen of Baha’u’llah” GPB 220; further GPB 201, 219, 220, 232, 238; PDC 117, 141.
http://www.bahai-biblio.org/centre-doc/saint/list-tablet-baha-u-llah.htm

The term “revealed” here simply means written by. Right. please?

Regards

Post #6 paarsurrey wrote:

Sorry, I am not much concerned with the Bahais and or the Bahaism, and as to what they believe. They are human beings, they can make mistakes.

My interest is only in Bahaullah , his claims and the arguments given by him in support of his claims.
I am reading Kitab-e-Iqan by Bahaullah and it occurred to me that Bahaullah does not say in it in clear and unequivocal terms about the things written in this book that these has been revealed on/to him by/from G-d. Right, please?
I will appreciate if somebody gives quotes from Iqan, if I am wrong.

Regards

Post #20 

Quote”You are correct. Bahaullah did NOT say in clear terms that, the Book of Iqan is a revelation from God. Does that answer your question?” Unquote.

Shoghi Effendi played with the translation of Quran by Rodwell

April 8, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-3#post-6045446

 

Post #53 paarsurrey , 

I find that Shoghi Effendi translated Iqan, and also used translation of Quran by Rodwell, with his own agenda in mind and against the norms of the translation. For instance

Quran verse 3:7 rendered by Rodwell:

“He it is who hath sent down to thee “the Book.” Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous;-these are the basis4 of the Book-and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God. And the stable in knowledge say, “We believe in it: it is all from our Lord.” But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding.”

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2800/pg2800-images.html
Shoghi Effendi disfigured it in Iqan thus:

“None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 13
Bahá’í Reference Library – The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 201-220
Again:

“None knoweth the meaning thereof except God and them that are well-grounded in knowledge.” 15
Bahá’í Reference Library – The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41
I don’t know, why did Shoghi Effendi play with the translation of Rodwell, changing it here and there?

Anybody, please.

Regards