Posts Tagged ‘Catholics’

Discrepancy in number of books in the Bible: Jews, Catholics and Protestants

April 24, 2013

Hank Kimball Says:
April 23, 2013 at 10:41 pm

Either all scripture is inspired of God, or it is not. The bible I read has 66 books penned by 38 men directed by God in every word. Either what is said in it can be interpreted by what is said in it, or it cannot. If one scripture seems, on the surface to contradict another, further study and understanding is indicated. If we do not use scripture to interpret scripture, we have relied on our own understanding. That is precisely why so many religions exist today.

Paarsurrey says:

Since we are not in a debate; we are only trying to understand one another’s point of view. You have your own free will to have a blind-faith. I will opt to have my own free will of not having a blind faith.

I don’t agree with your above mentioned generalizations. Bible does not consist of the original Word of the one true God revealed on a truthful messenger prophet. It could have certain portions or sentences of revelations from the one true God but only translated from some other language; not in the original language they were revealed on a messenger prophet of God.

The difference in number of books of Catholics, Protestants, other Christian denomination and Jews is an evidence that Bible has been changed by the denominations they pertain to.

Jews– they have total 49 books in the OT Bible. They don’t believe in NT.

Catholics– they have 46 books in their OT+27 books in the NT; that makes their total book as 73.

Protestants- they have 39 books in their OT+27 books in the NT; that make their total of 66 books.

So by this I can tell you that you are a protestant.

If we go by the arguments given by you; the Christian-Catholics and Christian-Protestants both of them, under the warning mentioned in the end of book of revelation which you quoted in one of your earlier posts, are responsible for reducing the whole books from the Bible; the Catholics for 3 books and Protestant for 10 books.

We have not yet taken account of numerous passages and/or sentences which have been added to or reduced from the Bible by the Catholics and Protestants.

This proves that the warning of revelation or the preservation of the text of scriptures is only valid for the book of revelation and it cannot be extended or generalized to other books or the Bible as a whole.

The text of Bible is not preserved in its original form

April 22, 2013

Hank Kimball Says vide his comments dated April 19, 2013:

“There is a warning to anyone messy with the bible from God; Revelation 22: 18-19“I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.”

Paarsurrey says:

I don’t think that one could generalize that which has been stated in the above passage in Revelation to the whole NT or to the whole Bible OT+NT.

Bible is not one book rather it is a collection of many books bound in one volume for convenience of the readers. The number of Books varies between the Jews, Catholics and Protestants.

It is therefore essential that for preservation of its contents every book must contains some warning or confirmation individually; then we could look into such claim on merit if it is correct or wrong.

I just quote three passages from Wikipedia:

1. Collections of related texts such as letters of the Apostle Paul (a major part of our society of which must have been made already by the early 2nd century)[2] and the Canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (asserted by Irenaeus of Lyon in the late-2nd century as the Four Gospels) gradually were joined to other collections and single works in different combinations to form various Christian canons of Scripture. Over time, some disputed books, such as the Book of Revelation and the Minor Catholic (General) Epistles were introduced into canons in which they were originally absent. Other works earlier held to be Scripture, such as 1 Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Diatessaron, were excluded from the New Testament. The Old Testament canon is not completely uniform among all major Christian groups including Roman Catholics, Protestants, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Slavic Orthodox Churches, and the Armenian Orthodox Church. However, the twenty-seven-book canon of the New Testament, at least since Late Antiquity, has been almost universally recognized within Christianity(see Development of the New Testament canon).

2. The books that eventually found a permanent place in the New Testament were not the only works of Christian literature produced in the earliest Christian centuries. The long process of canonization began early, sometimes with tacit reception of traditional texts, sometimes with explicit selection or rejection of particular texts as either acceptable or unacceptable for use in a given context (e.g., not all texts that were acceptable for private use were considered appropriate for use in the liturgy).

3. Over the course of history, those works of early Christian literature that survived but that did not become part of the New Testament have been variously grouped by theologians and scholars. Drawing upon, though redefining, an older term used in early Christianity and among Protestants when referring to those books found in the Christian Old Testament although not in the Jewish Bible, modern scholars began to refer to these works of early Christian literature not included in the New Testament as “apocryphal”, by which was meant non-canonical. Collected editions of these works were then referred to as the “New Testament apocrypha”. Typically excluded from such published collections are the following groups of works: The Apostolic Fathers, the 2nd-century Christian apologists, the Alexandrians, Tertullian,Methodius of Olympus, Novatian, Cyprian, martyrdoms, and the Desert Fathers. Almost all other Christian literature from the period, and sometimes including works composed well into Late Antiquity, are relegated to the so-called New Testament apocrypha. These “apocryphal” works are nevertheless important for the study of the New Testament in that they were produced in the same ancient context and often using the same language as those books that would eventually form the New Testament. Some of these later works are dependent (either directly or indirectly) upon books that would later come to be in the New Testament or upon the ideas expressed in them. There is even an example of a pseudepigraphical letter composed under the guise of a presumably lost letter of the Apostle Paul, the Epistle to the Laodiceans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_testament

One could view Hank Kimball’s comments @:

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/seeing-the-apparitions-of-mary-and-jesus/#comment-2484

The so-called “undisputed epistles” of Paul

December 12, 2011

Authorship of the Pauline epistles

The Pauline epistles are the fourteen books in the New Testament traditionally attributed to Paul the Apostle, although many dispute the anonymous Epistle to the Hebrews as being a Pauline epistle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Pauline_epistles
#The_.22undisputed.22_epistles

Even if undisputed by the Catholics; the epistles have no value to the truthful Christians who follow Jesus; they show being deviant from the truthful teachings of Jesus; and should have not been a part of the Bible which is attributed to Jesus, though wrongly.

Quran resolves all contradictions and ambiguities of Torah and Gospels

April 8, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/quran-is-neither-ambiguous-nor-contradictory/#comment-980

wudjab Says:
April 7, 2010 at 9:15 pm

Is this the same quran that real muslims (Shia, Sunni, etc) believe in or is this the magical Ahmediya version ?

Paarsurrey says:

April 8, 2010 at 11:08 am

Hi friend wudjab

Quran, the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam is the same whatever the denomination; and it has not changed from the time it was revealed. It is the pristine Word of the Creator- God Allah YHWH. It has got all the lasting and truthful teachings of all the religions of the world; including OTBible or Torah and the NTBible.

There are many contradictions and ambiguities in the Bible and their followers are perplexed to note them, as you must have observed. If they have claims for the issues, they don’t have reasons for them in their books and if they have reason, which is very seldom; they don’t have the claims for that in their books.

To resolve such contradictions their followers have to add something from their own selves which mean they add wisdom to their Books which was not there to start with.

All such contradictions and ambiguities are resolved by Quran.

The text of the Quran is the same for Shias, Sunnis and Ahmadis. Ahmadis neither believe in any magic nor do we have any magical version of the Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslims

Mormons and JWs consider “Catholics and Protestant” as heretics. Are they?

April 8, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/jesus-was-not-dead-on-the-cross-in-the-first-place/#comment-983#comment-983

wudjab Says:

April 7, 2010 at 9:07 pm

You need to try harder Paar,

According to your own Quran :

[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him – they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*
and the reason they did not break his legs ?

John 19:36

These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
Now if you spent as much time learning about the real Islam (ahmediya’s are not considered Muslims after all) as you do trying to discredit Christianity, you might be better served.

paarsurrey Says:

April 8, 2010 at 10:29 am

Hi friend wudjab

Well my friend; “Mormons” and “JWs”- the only true Christians, do consider the Catholics and Protestants as heretics. Are you a Mormon or a JW? Please mention so that we may proceed further in the discussion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Paul spoiled Jesus’ true teachings

March 19, 2010

Paul spoiled Jesus’ true teachings to avenge his obvious enmity

hvtbintl69 Says:

I understand your beliefs but what are they based upon? The evidence? Of course Mary/Jesus they never celebrated Easter. Jesus was the originator.
There is no evidence that Jesus survived the cross nor is there any evidence that he died in Kashmir years later. Nothing in archaeology or scripture verifies it.
Jesus was dead on the cross, his friends put him into the tomb due to the oncoming Sabbath not any kind of conspiracy with the Romans. No removal occurred.
Thanks

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend hvtbintl69

If Jesus would have been the originator of the Easter, the annual feast of the Christians; he must have celebrated it himself. In fact Jesus was not founder of the “Christianity”; it was Paul who founded “Christianity”:

1. Paul only used Christ’s name as a scapegoat

2. to spread his own (Paul’s) Theology invented at Rome

3. and also to take revenge from Jesus who had escaped death on Cross

4. by spoiling Jesus’ true teachings

5. and who (Jesus) had gone out of the reach of Paul who was a dead enemy of Jesus and his friends.

Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity of Paul and the Church.

I have given numerous proofs to that effect in my posts in my blog; you or other Christians of 32000+ denominations are welcome to refute them if you like, with your reasonable, rational and logical argument. I don’t think Christians could refute them. It is an inter-faith discussion blog; everybody is welcome to join the discussions opened by me in my posts. I respect all the 32000+ denominations of the Christians. Even JWs or Mormons who declare to be the only true Christians are welcome here. Everybody is invited to join the discussion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus and Mary being Jews never celebrated Easter

March 18, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/jesus-was-not-dead-on-the-cross-in-the-first-place/#comment-952

hvtbintl69 Says:

I agree we have common points yet it is my desire as a Christian that you understand the differences because Eternity is a long time. The reason why Christians celebrate Easter is because Jesus bought eternity for us – he was the perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus died on the cross – it was not someone that “seemed” like him, it was him and he rose.
Thanks.

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend “hvtbintl69”

I don’t agree here:

1. I don’t think Jesus, who was a Jesus and his mother Mary also; they ever celebrated Easter- of the Catholics Protestants.

2. Jesus never bought any eternity for anybody; he himself died a natural and peaceful death in India.

3. Jesus never sacrificed himself for anybody’s sins.

4. Jesus never died on the Cross; he was alive when delivered from the Cross but in a near-dead position; that is why his friends took him hurriedly to a spacious tomb for treatment; so that he does not get suffocated.

5. Jesus never died on the Cross; so there is no question for his beings risen from the dead.
I think you understand.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus was never attired in any special religious dress code

February 26, 2010

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/holy-post/archive/2010/02/14/oregon-debates-ending-ban-on-teachers-wearing-religious-clothing-in-the-classroom.aspx#comments

Hi friends

I think Jesus was never attired in any special religious dress code. He even spoke against the Jewish priests who used it.
Religion is for learning Ethics, Morals and Spirituality; it does not need any dress code.

If the Atheists have any ideas on the above realms, there is no harm if their views are also accommodated.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus celebrated marriage of Adam and Eve

February 26, 2010

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/holy-post/archive/2010/02/26/396460.aspx#comments

Hi friends

I think friend Cloudlift is a reasonable person. If the Catholics like CrisA would have given rational, reasonable and logical arguments in favor of Celibacy; he must have understood them.

The wrong is in the creed; it is very obvious. The Catholics need to understand the wrong and cruelty in Celibacy throughout the ages.

What good has Celibacy done?

If Adam and Eve would have observed Celibacy to start with; neither Jesus would have born nor the Catholics into this world.

I think Jesus celebrated the marriage of Adam and Eve when he took Adam as his father; Jesus said he was a Son of Man, obviously alluding to the marriage of Adam and Eve, otherwise it had no meaning, in my opinion.

Celibacy is not a desirable thing and Catholics should reform themselves being wrong on their side, in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Respect should be a default faculty of man – one earns it simply by birth

February 26, 2010

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/holy-post/archive/2010/02/26/396460.aspx#comments

Hi friends

Nobody here should be hated and everyone needs to be respected.

Respect should be a default faculty of man – one earns it simply by birth from the fellow human beings.

Not only that every human being should be respected but the creeds he has should also be respected, which means that every human being has the right to express his beliefs fully and freely without fear of derision, persecution or ridiculing by others with foul and filthy words and or actions.

Nevertheless, it does not mean that one should accept wrong beliefs of others deaf and dumb. Allowing others a right to co-exist peacefully; the respect of a human being lies in that one should give rational, reasonable and logical arguments to prove other wrong and or to convince others of the wrong in their beliefs.

I don’t think friend Cloudlift has infringed on other’s respect; though I am new on this topic. He did not disrespect others, in my opinion.

Did he?

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim