Posts Tagged ‘Protestants’

Discrepancy in number of books in the Bible: Jews, Catholics and Protestants

April 24, 2013

Hank Kimball Says:
April 23, 2013 at 10:41 pm

Either all scripture is inspired of God, or it is not. The bible I read has 66 books penned by 38 men directed by God in every word. Either what is said in it can be interpreted by what is said in it, or it cannot. If one scripture seems, on the surface to contradict another, further study and understanding is indicated. If we do not use scripture to interpret scripture, we have relied on our own understanding. That is precisely why so many religions exist today.

Paarsurrey says:

Since we are not in a debate; we are only trying to understand one another’s point of view. You have your own free will to have a blind-faith. I will opt to have my own free will of not having a blind faith.

I don’t agree with your above mentioned generalizations. Bible does not consist of the original Word of the one true God revealed on a truthful messenger prophet. It could have certain portions or sentences of revelations from the one true God but only translated from some other language; not in the original language they were revealed on a messenger prophet of God.

The difference in number of books of Catholics, Protestants, other Christian denomination and Jews is an evidence that Bible has been changed by the denominations they pertain to.

Jews– they have total 49 books in the OT Bible. They don’t believe in NT.

Catholics– they have 46 books in their OT+27 books in the NT; that makes their total book as 73.

Protestants- they have 39 books in their OT+27 books in the NT; that make their total of 66 books.

So by this I can tell you that you are a protestant.

If we go by the arguments given by you; the Christian-Catholics and Christian-Protestants both of them, under the warning mentioned in the end of book of revelation which you quoted in one of your earlier posts, are responsible for reducing the whole books from the Bible; the Catholics for 3 books and Protestant for 10 books.

We have not yet taken account of numerous passages and/or sentences which have been added to or reduced from the Bible by the Catholics and Protestants.

This proves that the warning of revelation or the preservation of the text of scriptures is only valid for the book of revelation and it cannot be extended or generalized to other books or the Bible as a whole.

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The text of Bible is not preserved in its original form

April 22, 2013

Hank Kimball Says vide his comments dated April 19, 2013:

“There is a warning to anyone messy with the bible from God; Revelation 22: 18-19“I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.”

Paarsurrey says:

I don’t think that one could generalize that which has been stated in the above passage in Revelation to the whole NT or to the whole Bible OT+NT.

Bible is not one book rather it is a collection of many books bound in one volume for convenience of the readers. The number of Books varies between the Jews, Catholics and Protestants.

It is therefore essential that for preservation of its contents every book must contains some warning or confirmation individually; then we could look into such claim on merit if it is correct or wrong.

I just quote three passages from Wikipedia:

1. Collections of related texts such as letters of the Apostle Paul (a major part of our society of which must have been made already by the early 2nd century)[2] and the Canonical Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (asserted by Irenaeus of Lyon in the late-2nd century as the Four Gospels) gradually were joined to other collections and single works in different combinations to form various Christian canons of Scripture. Over time, some disputed books, such as the Book of Revelation and the Minor Catholic (General) Epistles were introduced into canons in which they were originally absent. Other works earlier held to be Scripture, such as 1 Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Diatessaron, were excluded from the New Testament. The Old Testament canon is not completely uniform among all major Christian groups including Roman Catholics, Protestants, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Slavic Orthodox Churches, and the Armenian Orthodox Church. However, the twenty-seven-book canon of the New Testament, at least since Late Antiquity, has been almost universally recognized within Christianity(see Development of the New Testament canon).

2. The books that eventually found a permanent place in the New Testament were not the only works of Christian literature produced in the earliest Christian centuries. The long process of canonization began early, sometimes with tacit reception of traditional texts, sometimes with explicit selection or rejection of particular texts as either acceptable or unacceptable for use in a given context (e.g., not all texts that were acceptable for private use were considered appropriate for use in the liturgy).

3. Over the course of history, those works of early Christian literature that survived but that did not become part of the New Testament have been variously grouped by theologians and scholars. Drawing upon, though redefining, an older term used in early Christianity and among Protestants when referring to those books found in the Christian Old Testament although not in the Jewish Bible, modern scholars began to refer to these works of early Christian literature not included in the New Testament as “apocryphal”, by which was meant non-canonical. Collected editions of these works were then referred to as the “New Testament apocrypha”. Typically excluded from such published collections are the following groups of works: The Apostolic Fathers, the 2nd-century Christian apologists, the Alexandrians, Tertullian,Methodius of Olympus, Novatian, Cyprian, martyrdoms, and the Desert Fathers. Almost all other Christian literature from the period, and sometimes including works composed well into Late Antiquity, are relegated to the so-called New Testament apocrypha. These “apocryphal” works are nevertheless important for the study of the New Testament in that they were produced in the same ancient context and often using the same language as those books that would eventually form the New Testament. Some of these later works are dependent (either directly or indirectly) upon books that would later come to be in the New Testament or upon the ideas expressed in them. There is even an example of a pseudepigraphical letter composed under the guise of a presumably lost letter of the Apostle Paul, the Epistle to the Laodiceans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_testament

One could view Hank Kimball’s comments @:

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/seeing-the-apparitions-of-mary-and-jesus/#comment-2484

Quran resolves all contradictions and ambiguities of Torah and Gospels

April 8, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/quran-is-neither-ambiguous-nor-contradictory/#comment-980

wudjab Says:
April 7, 2010 at 9:15 pm

Is this the same quran that real muslims (Shia, Sunni, etc) believe in or is this the magical Ahmediya version ?

Paarsurrey says:

April 8, 2010 at 11:08 am

Hi friend wudjab

Quran, the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam is the same whatever the denomination; and it has not changed from the time it was revealed. It is the pristine Word of the Creator- God Allah YHWH. It has got all the lasting and truthful teachings of all the religions of the world; including OTBible or Torah and the NTBible.

There are many contradictions and ambiguities in the Bible and their followers are perplexed to note them, as you must have observed. If they have claims for the issues, they don’t have reasons for them in their books and if they have reason, which is very seldom; they don’t have the claims for that in their books.

To resolve such contradictions their followers have to add something from their own selves which mean they add wisdom to their Books which was not there to start with.

All such contradictions and ambiguities are resolved by Quran.

The text of the Quran is the same for Shias, Sunnis and Ahmadis. Ahmadis neither believe in any magic nor do we have any magical version of the Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslims

Mormons and JWs consider “Catholics and Protestant” as heretics. Are they?

April 8, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/jesus-was-not-dead-on-the-cross-in-the-first-place/#comment-983#comment-983

wudjab Says:

April 7, 2010 at 9:07 pm

You need to try harder Paar,

According to your own Quran :

[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him – they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*
and the reason they did not break his legs ?

John 19:36

These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
Now if you spent as much time learning about the real Islam (ahmediya’s are not considered Muslims after all) as you do trying to discredit Christianity, you might be better served.

paarsurrey Says:

April 8, 2010 at 10:29 am

Hi friend wudjab

Well my friend; “Mormons” and “JWs”- the only true Christians, do consider the Catholics and Protestants as heretics. Are you a Mormon or a JW? Please mention so that we may proceed further in the discussion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Paul spoiled Jesus’ true teachings

March 19, 2010

Paul spoiled Jesus’ true teachings to avenge his obvious enmity

hvtbintl69 Says:

I understand your beliefs but what are they based upon? The evidence? Of course Mary/Jesus they never celebrated Easter. Jesus was the originator.
There is no evidence that Jesus survived the cross nor is there any evidence that he died in Kashmir years later. Nothing in archaeology or scripture verifies it.
Jesus was dead on the cross, his friends put him into the tomb due to the oncoming Sabbath not any kind of conspiracy with the Romans. No removal occurred.
Thanks

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend hvtbintl69

If Jesus would have been the originator of the Easter, the annual feast of the Christians; he must have celebrated it himself. In fact Jesus was not founder of the “Christianity”; it was Paul who founded “Christianity”:

1. Paul only used Christ’s name as a scapegoat

2. to spread his own (Paul’s) Theology invented at Rome

3. and also to take revenge from Jesus who had escaped death on Cross

4. by spoiling Jesus’ true teachings

5. and who (Jesus) had gone out of the reach of Paul who was a dead enemy of Jesus and his friends.

Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity of Paul and the Church.

I have given numerous proofs to that effect in my posts in my blog; you or other Christians of 32000+ denominations are welcome to refute them if you like, with your reasonable, rational and logical argument. I don’t think Christians could refute them. It is an inter-faith discussion blog; everybody is welcome to join the discussions opened by me in my posts. I respect all the 32000+ denominations of the Christians. Even JWs or Mormons who declare to be the only true Christians are welcome here. Everybody is invited to join the discussion.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus and Mary being Jews never celebrated Easter

March 18, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/jesus-was-not-dead-on-the-cross-in-the-first-place/#comment-952

hvtbintl69 Says:

I agree we have common points yet it is my desire as a Christian that you understand the differences because Eternity is a long time. The reason why Christians celebrate Easter is because Jesus bought eternity for us – he was the perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus died on the cross – it was not someone that “seemed” like him, it was him and he rose.
Thanks.

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend “hvtbintl69”

I don’t agree here:

1. I don’t think Jesus, who was a Jesus and his mother Mary also; they ever celebrated Easter- of the Catholics Protestants.

2. Jesus never bought any eternity for anybody; he himself died a natural and peaceful death in India.

3. Jesus never sacrificed himself for anybody’s sins.

4. Jesus never died on the Cross; he was alive when delivered from the Cross but in a near-dead position; that is why his friends took him hurriedly to a spacious tomb for treatment; so that he does not get suffocated.

5. Jesus never died on the Cross; so there is no question for his beings risen from the dead.
I think you understand.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

“Word become flesh”- a wrong notion of Catholics Protestants if taken literally

February 10, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/jesus-is-no-savior-of-christians-if-he-couldnt-save-himself-death-on-cross/#comment-912

somethingcrazy Says:

If you want to see that Jesus created, then just check out the first verses of John’s gospel:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning”

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend somethingcrazy

I thank you for participating in the discussion.
Please go through the passages quoted by you again. I don’t see Jesus’ name mentioned in them; if I have missed please underline Jesus’ name in them.

I think it is only a guess of the Catholics Protestants that Jesus’ name has been literally mentioned there; maybe it is just another phenomenon, which John, only a human being wrongly took up like that; nevertheless it is not binding on others to subscribe to John’s mistakes or his wrong views or concepts.

I think it is a mistake of our Christian friends to make Jesus a god; like our Hindu friends have made Krishna a god, in my opinion.
But for Paul; Jesus truthful followers would have never taken Jesus to be a god. Matthew, Marks and Luke did not mention that Word has become flesh.

You might have spoken many words in your life. Did you ever see that any of your Word has become flesh? Your Word would have never even smelt like flesh. It is your tongue and lips and your throat made of flesh that help one to make words, and of course the teeth made of bones, which helps to make the words. The reverse phenomenon never happens, in my opinion.

It is just a mistake of John, or those who wrote for John that they thought otherwise, in my opinion.

Jesus never thought like this; how could he had claimed to be god when he knew that he literally created no new Sun, no new Moon and no new Earth. It is only an accusation of Catholics Protestants against Jesus that Jesus claimed to be literally god.

Jesus could have asserted himself for his claims and reasons more clearly and in a straightforward manner. Whom Jesus as a god had to fear about? Jesus needed no self-appointed spokesmen like Paul or Church, in my opinion. Since Jesus was not god so he did not claim it unequivocally.

I love Jesus for his wisdom. Jesus feared nobody except God Allah YHWH whose humble servant Jesus was, in my opinion.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

False Prophets are always killed in terms of Torah

January 31, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4657&p=93401#p93401

manfred wrote:

But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain. Deuteronomy 18:20

This verse of the Torah tells us that false prophets should be killed. It is an instruction, not an explanation on how to recognize false prophets.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

It is not an optional thing; it is a commandment that must be followed.Please read Deuteronomy again; it is a must .
The false Prophets have always been killed, otherwise the verse becomes meaningless. It is for this that we maintain that Jesus was not killed on the Cross; the Creator-God Allah YHWH planned things in such a way that Jesus survived against all odds; and finally he made good his escape to India.

Or

Please quote the verses from the Torah and the reason from Torah verses where explanation has been provided to recognize false prophets from the truthful ones; you won’t find any, in my opinion, except the one I have already mentioned that false Prophets are killed.

Catholics Protestants to take it seriously; no derision or ridiculing like the un-natural Atheists Agnostics, please.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Jesus warned about Paul a false Prophet

January 30, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2652&start=160

Trojan wrote: if you think the whole of the NT is Paul’s invention, then what right do you have to quote Jesus’ warning from it?

Paarsurrey wrote:

Hi friend Trojan

The cunning people like Paul was; they put things of their benefit in the already prevalent writings. This is what Paul and the Church did; they adopted already existing anonymous writings and changed them to serve their purpose. It is not difficult to ascertain Jesus’ true teachings from the wrongs changed by Paul and the Church.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the truthful Promised Messiah, Second Coming of Jesus

January 30, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4657&p=93270#p93270

Paarsurrey wrote:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 was a truthful Prophet Messenger of the Creator – God Allah YHWH in terms of the Bible (OT as well as NT).

Please read the following verses carefully:

1. 20 But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain. Deuteronomy 18:20
2. 14 And the Lord said to me: The prophets prophesy falsely in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, nor have I spoken to them: they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination and deceit, and the seduction of their own heart. 15 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that prophecy in my name, whom I did not send, that say: Sword and famine shall not be in this land: By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16 And the people to whom they prophecy, shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword, and there shall be none to bury them: they and their wives, their sons and their daughters, and I will pour out their wickedness upon them. Jeremias 14:14-20
3. 36 For before these days rose up Theodas, affirming himself to be somebody, to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all that believed him were scattered, and brought to nothing. 37 After this man, rose up Judas of Galilee, in the days of the enrolling, and drew away the people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as consented to him, were dispersed. Acts Of Apostles 5:36-37

The above topic that the false Prophets do get killed is firm principle confirmed by the Bible; I have only given some verses for your perusal.

Not only that Theodas and Judas of Galilee were got killed but Paul a counterfeit Epistle of Jesus and Joseph Smith Junior also got killed.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the truthful Prophet of the Creator- God Allah YHWH; he did not get killed.

The Catholics Protestants if they believe in Bible; they should accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a truthful Prophet; no compulsion though.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks