Did Paul elevate Jesus by giving Jesus a fictional god-head?

November 13, 2017

Paul elevated Jesus by giving Jesus a fictional god-head from the fictional expression that Jesus died on the Cross and was raised from the dead. 

Thread: “Where was god???? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

 

Post 52: 

[Replying to post 45 by paarsurrey1]

paarsurrey1 wrote:
“Islam revives and reforms all religions and Muhammad is the corrective prophet/messenger and Quran the corrective Recitation that confirms the Truth revealed to founders of all great religions and that they all, the founders, were truthful persons but their founders could not keep the message intact in its pristine, pure and secure form. Right, please? ”
X—- wrote:
This is totally unacceptable to Christianity*.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End”.
Rev. 1:8


paarsurrey1 wrote:

Does one mean the *Pauline-Christianity, please?
If yes, it does not belong to Jesus or his true teachings. Jesus never started a religion called “Christianity”, it was:

~ started by Paul with a fictional vision when Jesus along with Mary had gone out of Judea lest he is caught and killed again.
~Paul doctored the anonymous Gospels and named them after Jesus’ disciples only to mislead Jesus followers from Jesus.
~Paul elevated Jesus by giving Jesus a fictional god-head from the fictional expression that Jesus died on the Cross and was raised from the dead.
~Paul propagated that Jesus had fictionally ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand of God.
~Paul fictionally propagated that Jesus died on the Cross to save the sinful Pauline-Christians from sins/death. How could one who could not save himself from the “fictional death”, could save others.

Jesus had got nothing to do with the teachings of Pauline-Christianity, please.
Right, please?

Quran corrects and brings forth the true teachings of Jesus and Mary, that Jesus believed in and acted upon. So, Muhammad is the truthful corrective prophet/messenger of One-True-God and serves the Jesus’ followers to revive and reform their religion, please. Right, please?

Regards

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Aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses people truthful witnesses? 

November 13, 2017

Jesus did not die on the Cross, he survived, so as per Paul’s own argument Pauline-Christianity’s “faith is futile”. Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.

Thread: “Aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses people truthful witnesses? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

Post 1: 

Paarsurrey wrote:

Aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses people truthful witnesses, please?

1 Corinthians

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God* that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
http://biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/15.htm

Jesus did not die on the Cross, he survived, so as per Paul’s own argument Pauline-Christianity’s “faith is futile”. Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.
________
*Jehovah

This entails that the Jehovah-Witnesses’ people who believe in Paul and the Pauline-Christianity, are false witnesses as long as, and if they have no concrete evidence/s of Jesus, not dying on the Cross.Right, please?
Please correct me if I am wrong with reasonable arguments.

Regards

“Until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah”

November 13, 2017

‘Ammar’s father, Yasir, and his mother, Sumayyah, also were tormented by
disbelievers. On one such occasion the Prophet happened to pass by. Filled with
emotion, he said, “Family of Yasir, bear up patiently, for God has prepared for you a Paradise.” The prophetic words were soon fulfilled. Yasir succumbed to the tortures, and a little later Abu Jahl murdered his aged wife, Sumayyah, with a spear.

Zinnirah, a woman slave, lost her eyes under the cruel treatment of disbelievers. Abu Fukayh, Safwan bin Umayyah’s slave, was laid on hot sand while over his chest were placed heavy and hot stones, under pain of which his tongue dropped out. Other slaves were mishandled in similar ways.”

Thread: “Is Koran a Book of Peace, Not War? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Non-Christian Religions and Philosophies

Post 33: 

[Replying to post 31 by paarsurrey1]
X—- — wrote:
Not sure how that is helping your case. Sure, spreading mischief in the land can mean persecution. It’s not clear what count and does not count as persecution. And it says to fight us until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah right there, that’s the very opposite of peace.


Quote:X—- — wrote:
us

paarsurrey1 wrote:

Quran verse [8:40]* addresses the Meccans who were persecuting Muslims, had burnt their houses, tortured them physically, not allowing Muslims to pray in congregation as per their religion, Muhammad and his companions were boycotted and restricted to an area for three years, not even allowing them access to food and were forced to migrate leaving their properties and valuable behind:

“Most of these slave-converts remained steadfast in outer as well as inner
professions of faith. But some were weak. Once the Holy Prophet found ‘Ammar
groaning with pain and drying his tears. Approached by the Prophet, ‘Ammar said he had been beaten and compelled to recant. The Prophet asked him, “But did you believe at heart?” ‘Ammar declared that he did, and the Prophet said that God would forgive his weakness.

‘Ammar’s father, Yasir, and his mother, Sumayyah, also were tormented by
disbelievers. On one such occasion the Prophet happened to pass by. Filled with
emotion, he said, “Family of Yasir, bear up patiently, for God has prepared for you a Paradise.” The prophetic words were soon fulfilled. Yasir succumbed to the tortures, and a little later Abu Jahl murdered his aged wife, Sumayyah, with a spear.

Zinnirah, a woman slave, lost her eyes under the cruel treatment of disbelievers. Abu Fukayh, Safwan bin Umayyah’s slave, was laid on hot sand while over his chest were placed heavy and hot stones, under pain of which his tongue dropped out. Other slaves were mishandled in similar ways.” :

One may like to read more from “Introduction to the Study of the Holy Quran”
Page 121 of 346
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

Regards

__________
[8:39] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past will be forgiven them; and if they return thereto, then verily, the example of the former peoples has already gone before them.
*[8:40] And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly for Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=8&verse=39

“spreading mischief in the land” is “persecution” in the verse/s

Paul is the middleman of Pauline-Christianity

November 12, 2017

Jesus was a prophet/messenger of One-True-God appointed by Him, so Jesus is not the middleman. Jesus just conveyed the Message given by One-True-God to him.Had Jesus not conveyed the message exactly he must have been punished by One-True-God.

Thread: “No-MiddleMan Movement “Discussion around the traces of middlemen in each religion
Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

Post 4: 

s—-r.d———-h wrote:
We believe that the world has an intelligent creator; one need not to abandon reason to live as a believer; life is a continuous, reasonable search for truth, which should lead to doing beautiful deeds; but no exclusive doctrine can claim the “right” path towards this. These are the middlemen who always come up with something very specific in their doctrine and introduce it as the “secret sauce” for salvation, to color their followers differently and to establish a “us vs. them” mindset.

D———–t wrote:

How is the above not already a very specialized religious position?

Christianity necessarily has a “middleman” in Christ. In Christianity Christ is the one who claim to be the only “right path”.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Paarsurrey says:

Jesus was a prophet/messenger of One-True-God appointed by Him, so Jesus is not the middleman. Jesus just conveyed the Message given by One-True-God to him.Had Jesus not conveyed the message exactly he must have been punished by One-True-God:

[69:45] And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,
[69:46] We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
[69:47] And then surely We would have severed his life-artery,
[69:48] And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=69&verse=46

Right, please?
Pauline-Christianity does not have the true teachings of Jesus or message of the One-True-God. It is the fiction created by Paul, so Paul is the middleman of Pauline-Christianity. Right, please?

Regards

One-True-God/YHVH/Allah/Ahura-Mazda/Is’ana/Ishwara

November 11, 2017

Islam revives and reforms all religions and Muhammad is the corrective prophet/messenger and Quran the corrective Recitation that confirms the Truth revealed to founders of all great religions and that they all, the founders, were truthful persons but their founders could not keep the message intact in its pristine, pure and secure form.

Thread: “Where was god???? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma 
Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

 

Post 45: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:56 am
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M—a wrote:
I don’t see point in combining two religions and making religious arguments from them. Particular religions have been given to people whose temperament is most suited to it. Judaics is rituals, Christianity is mystical and Islam is obeyance.
If one suits yu better than another, take it.

bl——-d wrote:

This is a rather simplistic way of viewing them. They are each full blown philosophical schools that have various tenets. Some are similar and some are different. Judaism does have rituals, but so does Christianity and Islam. Christianity does have mystical elements, but so does Judaism and Islam. Islam does stress obedience, among other things, but so does Judaism and Christianity. The base of Judaism is HaTorah. The base of Christianity is the Apostolic Writings and the base of Islam is the Koran. As the Muslims put it they are all “people of the book”. That is that they are constitutional philosophies. However, the three philosophies are not exclusive of the other in their views, nor are they equal to one another in those views. That is why, I think, if one is not going to look at each individually, one needs to focus on the tenets and not the philosophies as a whole.

Paarsurrey wrote:

Islam is not named after any human personage. It envisages the eternal Truth that was revealed, we believe, by One-True-God/YHVH/Allah/Ahura-Mazda/Is’ana*/Ishwara** . Whatever the name of One-True-God was revealed to a people in their own language and they submitted/obeyed to Him and worshiped Him to attain peace of heart and soul and with humans around, in this sense they were followers of Islam and Muslims. Islam revives and reforms all religions and Muhammad is the corrective prophet/messenger and Quran the corrective Recitation that confirms the Truth revealed to founders of all great religions and that they all, the founders, were truthful persons but their founders could not keep the message intact in its pristine, pure and secure form. Right, please?

Regards

__________
*The name of One-True-God that is reported Buddha believed in.
**One name of One-True-God that Dharmic-Religions believe in.

Truth and Justice

November 11, 2017

Allah has enjoined Muslims to establish justice in every matter, but today we see that general Muslim population and scholars are not abiding by this teaching. For example, people tell lies in court [i.e. perjury] in domestic matters to get their rights. This is how corruption spreads in society and justice is overlooked. The claim of Muslims is that we are the best of nations [Khair-e-Ummat], but this can only be the case if we follow the teachings of Islam.


Synopsis:

  • Allah has enjoined Muslims to establish justice in every matter, but today we see that general Muslim population and scholars are not abiding by this teaching. For example, people tell lies in court [i.e. perjury] in domestic matters to get their rights. This is how corruption spreads in society and justice is overlooked. The claim of Muslims is that we are the best of nations [Khair-e-Ummat], but this can only be the case if we follow the teachings of Islam. As such, irrespective of the situation, the testimony of a believer must always be based on truth and should be given for the sake of Allah. And this can only happen when a person has true faith in God. And he is even willing to testify against himself, his parents and his family.
  • It is sad to see that, from time to time, injustice even takes place amongst us in the matters of Qaza and business dealings. Even those who possess religious knowledge are sometimes guilty of this. We should remember that God cannot be deceived and all our actions will be put forward in front of us on the Day of Judgment. The Promised Messiah (as) has set high standards for us. It is mentioned that in his days of young age, the Promised Messiah (as) gave testimony against his own father in a court case. This was despite the fact that the lawyer had told him he would lose if he gave this testimony. After having lost the case, the Promised Messiah (as) left the court with such jubilance, as if he had won the case.
  • We should keep such examples in front of us. Some people evade taxes by hiding their income and become a source of disgrace after getting caught. If we act according to the teachings of God, He is the best of Sustainers. Some people lie in matrimonial matters. Some people try to disgrace their ex-husband or ex-wife after divorce. Such matters are against the standards of justice expected of Ahmadi Muslims.
  • We should never wrong anyone based on difference of religion. A true believer is he who upholds justice and peace in every matter. The injustices of Muslims are highlighted a lot in the western world; that is, how Muslims are killing each other, and how Muslim rulers are oppressing their own people. Some Muslims even commit atrocities when they come to western countries. They justify such wrongful actions by saying they are taking revenge from the western people, when in fact the real culprits are the Muslim leaders who are behind the oppression. For example, drones and bombings were done with the agreement of local Muslim leaders. This type of thinking only creates further enmities. And it is against the teaching of the Holy Quran, which states that the enmity of a nation should not incite you to be unjust towards them. Unfortunately, the Muslim clerics of today have misguided the Muslim masses. It is our responsibility to explain the true teachings of Islam and the true character of the Holy Prophet (saw).
  • Once the Holy Prophet (saw) sent some Muslims to spy on the enemies during the time of war. In the sacred area around Kaaba, some people saw these Muslims. Afraid of being exposed, Muslims killed two of the people. People came to the Holy Prophet (saw) to complain about the murders. The Holy Prophet (saw) did not say that you have also been oppressing us [i.e these killings are justified]; rather, he said that you have been wronged, and gave blood-money as per the custom of that time. And the Holy Prophet (sa) severely reprimanded those Muslims.
  • Such are the standards which we must follow. The Promised Messiah (as) was sent to re-establish such standards among Muslims. We cannot do true Tabligh without first establishing such standards of justice amongst us. Otherwise, the world would tell us to first look after our own affairs. May Allah enable us to follow his teachings and may he enable us to become a role-model for others in establishing justice!
  • Huzoor Anwar (aa) announced the funeral prayer of Respected Hasan Muhammad Khan sahib, former Naib Wakilut-Tabshir in Pakistan, and a Waqf-e-Zindagi, who held many offices. He was a Musi and had immense passion for Tabligh. He was imprisoned in God’s way in 1953. After arrival in Canada, he served as Editor of Ahmadiyya Gazette until 2006.

Paul was the wolf in sheep’ clothing

November 10, 2017

Colossians* is not written by Jesus.
It is written by Paul, he did not quote from Torah, and did not mention as to what was his source of knowledge. Jesus did not claim to be a firstborn. Did he, please?
I understand from Jesus as mentioned in Gospels that Paul was the wolf in sheep’ clothing** and the false prophet** against whom Jesus warned his followers. 

Thread: “Questions: The first born of all creation? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

Post 66: 

paarsurrey1 wrote:
Wasn’t Adam the first born, please?Regards

E–wrote:
No Christ was:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (including Adam) (Col:1-15)

paarsurrey1 wrote:
If Adam was not firstborn, then how did he come into existence,please?
Did Adam evolve through million years of Evolution,please?

E–wrote:

Christ created him:
For by him were all things created, (including Adam) that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Col 1:16)
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1Co 11:3)

Peace.

paarsurrey1 wrote:

Colossians* is not written by Jesus.
It is written by Paul, he did not quote from Torah, and did not mention as to what was his source of knowledge. Jesus did not claim to be a firstborn. Did he, please?
I understand from Jesus as mentioned in Gospels that Paul was the wolf in sheep’ clothing** and the false prophet** against whom Jesus warned his followers. Right, please?

Regards

_________

*Epistle to the Colossians-Authorship
“The letter’s authors claim to be Paul and Timothy, but authorship began to be authoritatively questioned during the 19th century.[9] Pauline authorship was held to by many of the early church’s prominent theologians, such as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen of Alexandria and Eusebius.[10]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Colossians

**Matthew 7:15
15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Does Paul deserve to be a “false prophet”?

November 9, 2017

Paul did not claim to be a prophet in so many words, but he claimed to have a conversation with Jesus whom he upgraded, fictionally, as God and it is one of the creeds of Pauline-Christianity.

Thread: “Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

Post 69: 

[Replying to post 68 by m—o]

 

m—o:
Paul, who never claimed prophet status


Paarsurrey wrote:

Yes, Paul did not claim to be a prophet in so many words, but he claimed to have a conversation with Jesus whom he upgraded, fictionally, as God and it is one of the creeds of Pauline-Christianity :

“The Conversion of Paul
In the three versions of Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:1-9, 22:6-11, 26:9-20), there are repeated elements which appear to be central to his mission and commissioning. First, it marked his conversion to Christianity; second, it constituted his call to be a prophet; and third, it served as his commission to be an apostle. These three points may be broken down into the following, more intimate considerations: (1) Paul was specifically chosen, set aside, and prepared by the Lord for the work that he would do; (2) Paul was sent as a witness to not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well; (3) Paul’s evangelistic mission would encounter rejection and require suffering; (4) Paul would bring light to people who were born into and currently lived in darkness; (5) Paul would preach repentance was required prior to a person’s acceptance into the Christian faith; (6) Paul’s witness would be grounded in space-time history and be based on his Damascus Road experience—what he had personally seen and heard in a real location that would be known to all who lived in Damascus.”
https://www.gotquestions.org/apostle-Paul-false-prophet.html

In this sense, Paul deserves to be a “false prophet”. Does one believe him as such, please?

Regards

“Free-will” and “Knowledge of good and evil”

November 9, 2017

One’s point is reasonable. Knowledge of good and evil and then to decide for the right on one’s own free-will is a sign of maturity and is praiseworthy. 

Thread: “Where was god???? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

 

Post 39: 
[Replying to post 37 by D—-y]

D—-y wrote:
Here is what I wrote:
“You should read the bible. Genesis 2:17 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Since god did not want to eat from the tree and thus have knowledge of good and evil. Without knowing good and evil how could one have free will?”

One’s point is reasonable. Knowledge of good and evil and then to decide for the right on one’s own free-will is a sign of maturity and is praiseworthy.
The narrators/scribes/translators/clergy seem to understand the phenomenon incorrectly. Moses was given both the Law and the Discrimination by YHVH, please:

[2:53] Then We forgave you thereafter, that you might be grateful.
[2:54] And remember the time when We gave Moses the Book and the Discrimination*, that you might be rightly guided.
[2:55] And remember the time when Moses said to his people: ‘O my people, you have indeed wronged yourselves by taking the calf for worship; turn you therefore to your Maker, and kill your evil desires; that is the best for you with your Maker.’ Then He turned towards you with compassion. Surely, He is Oft-Returning with compassion, and is Merciful.
[2:56] And remember when you said: ‘O Moses, we will by no means believe thee until we see Allah face to face;’ then the thunderbolt overtook you, while you gazed.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=53
* knowledge of good and evil to exercise free-will.

Regards

Mohammad as a corrective prophet of God

November 8, 2017

This is one aspect of Muhammad’s title “Khatam-un-Nabiyyeen” or Seal of the Prophets by YHVH, with the teachings given to him by Allah in Quran, one could easily see the core original teachings given to any prophet/messenger of God in the past, this is the seal of authentication that Muhammad is. Prophets/Messengers could come after Muhammad under discretion of YHVH but with no new Law, they will follow Muhammad in teachings and his sunnah/acts as authentication from Muhammad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 is one such prophet/messenger of Allah and valid Successor of Muhammad.

Thread: “Did Paul base creeds on “mystery” or blind-faith?”Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

67: 

[Replying to post 58 by E——–n]

E——–n
I see Mohammad as a corrective prophet of God, ignoring the institution of blood sacrifice altogether, and explicitly stating that “God is not begotten, nor does He beget”. And He has no (literal) Son, but rather He is uniquely One.


Paarsurrey wrote:

This is one aspect of Muhammad’s title “Khatam-un-Nabiyyeen” or Seal of the Prophets by YHVH, with the teachings given to him by Allah in Quran, one could easily see the core original teachings given to any prophet/messenger of God in the past, this is the seal of authentication that Muhammad is. Prophets/Messengers could come after Muhammad under discretion of YHVH but with no new Law, they will follow Muhammad in teachings and his sunnah/acts as authentication from Muhammad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 is one such prophet/messenger of Allah and valid Successor of Muhammad. Right, please?

Regards