“I think we can have reasonable confidence in their conclusions, just as we can have reasonable confidence in the conclusions of scientists.” Unquote
I think it is knowledge through Revelation which primarily guides us in the ethical, moral and spiritual realms. History or science cannot make a mortal one an Immortal one. Even if there would be persons who rely on history or science as a perfect guide; and they say with consensus, they cannot make one a god.
So with reasonable confidence by which you mean a controversial simple majority ,it can guide us little in such prime issue of Christianity as to confer on Jesus godhead or son-ship of god which even Jesus did not claim in a very straightforward manner; I think it would be most unwise.
And it is against the core teachings of Jesus; why go against him to make him a god or son of god?
History is written by humans of the humans; there is only One-True-God so there is no history of any god; if one insists then one’s concept is definitely a human construct; with Christianity believing Jesus as literal or physical god or literal or a literal physical son of god, then it is a brain-child of sinful Paul; a construct of Paul’s.
With the Renaissance in the West the Westerners realized of this reality and since the Christians insisted on the godhead of Jesus so the Westerners started denying that there was no God implying deeply that Jesus was not a god or son of god; and they also denied any historicity of Jesus altogether.
This is how Christianity started giving space to Atheism etc; or losing ground to them.
I have observed on internet discussions that some Christians who were previously Atheists have reverted to Theism but they don’t defend Christianity anymore; instead they attack the unreasonableness of Atheism etc; and they are good at it.
If one denies the core teachings of Jesus (Moses and prophets) as elaborated in my previous comments; then a Christian has to leave NT Bible and in distress they come to history which also does not support them for the reasons above mentioned.
“I have always wondered why Paul never sought out Mary?”
Jesus went out of Judea and out of the jurisdiction of the Roman Empire lest he is caught again by the Jews and hanged again. He took his mother Mary along with him. Paul must have known it; but he won’t tell it lest he is exposed.
It is reported that during Jesus’ journey to India, Mary died in the way towards Kashmir and is said to be buried at Murree, a hillstation near Islamabad Pakistan.
The name Murree is after the name of Mary the mother of Jesus; one may Google for it and read so many entries on it.
Further to my post of MAR 07, 2014 @ 12:28:48 ; I have to state that only sinful Paul knew of his own own fabrication; it is for this that he had to admit:
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.…
So that is the focal point to be discussed here; if Jesus did not die on the Cross then Christianity the invention of Paul is in vain. Then Jesus’ core teachings become clear for those who have been trapped into believing Jesus was god or son of god; into the reality that there is only One-True-God and none else; and trinity is nothing else but idolatrous; it was neither believed by Jesus, nor by Moses, nor by the prophets as declared by Jesus himself unambiguously.
@ Calladus : 23/2/14 5:31 PM (posted but still awaiting moderation by Calladus)
I take your first quote of Bible:
Matt 11:27
[26] Yea, Father; for so hath it seemed good in thy sight. [27] All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him. [28] Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. [29] Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. [30] For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.
Jesus was talking in parables and metaphors; as could be ascertained from the words “all you that labor”, “burdened”, “refresh”, “Take up my yoke”; so the words “Father” and “Son” are not literal but should be taken in symbolic form.
Now, here, you should reflect that you took a wrong view of Christianity; which is only a misnomer only because it teaches the teachings of Paul and Church and has nothing to do with the real teachings of Jesus.
You rejected the total picture of Christianity being irrational; and irrational it is for sure; this is because its many tenets that were invented by Paul and collaborated by the Church were irrational.
The interpretation of your research is wrong; the total could not be wrong if many of its components were not wrong.
Your study of Christianity is intact; but you could not ascertain right in it from the wrong in it, only because you could not think of a true principle that could have lead you to the correct conclusion.
Please start viewing the video, setting play-head position, for the relevant Q #3 @ 00:31:30 As I understand Muslims as a whole believe Jesus Christ was son of God, Why do you believe he was a prophet? Its answer ends @ 00:43:19: the answer is only: 11.89 in duration.
Paarsurrey noted following hint words and syllables in the contents of the reply to the question asked, in case of doubt, please hear the video and correct accordingly:
It is against the concept of God to bear children, half of the chromosomes from man and half from woman, God providing the needed chromosomes- the fluid passed into Mary, the species differ, God and creation there is nothing common, it would be horrifying thing, character in a metaphoric, Children of Israel are referred as children of God, status expressed metaphorically,
It is a good post wherein purpose of life has been nicely explained and the hollowness of Atheism/naturalism has been exposed.
But for the sentence at the end “For me this is one of the reasons among many Christianity makes real sense”.
Jesus did not believe in the modern Christianity; it has nothing to do with Him.
Jesus did not believe in “Trinity”, or of his being “god” or “son of god”; or his death on the Cross; or his ascension to heaven bodily from Jerusalem after the event of Cross.
Unless the Christians follow the acts and beliefs of Jesus and Mary, they must doubt fulfilling the purpose of life; following Paul and scribes would lead them nowhere. One should not remain in illusions.
This morning I ran into a Starbucks and saw an old friend. We had few minutes so we began to talk about life and sort of catch up investigating each other. Within our conversation I clearly could see that he was surprised that the crazy guy he knew twenty years ago would become a Pastor. I could see the cold expression and confusion on his face as he wondered why I guy like me would educate himself in theology and waste good money on a certification on Apologetics. He thought such an education was a complete waste of time and money, but he wanted to be nice so he just questionably smiled as I answered his questions. I could visibly see his restraint as I knew he wanted to unload on me about being a Christian. However, he continued in the small talk, until an old member of my church…
Are you saying you don’t believe Jesus was the son of God and that he never referred to himself as being God?
Paarsurrey wrote:
Jesus never meant that he was Son of God or God literally or physically; he only meant symbolically like it is said man is created in the image of God which only means that man should acquire attributes of God as far as possible; it should be man’s goal.
This is clarified by Jesus himself in many a verses; I just quote from John:
John 10:31-35
31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me?33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Unquote
The Christians are at fault to make Jesus a part of Trinity or God in literal terms; they should refrain from it.
Jesus very clearly mentions that he was not literally Son of God but only a human being (and a and took it to mean a righteous human being) who of himself cannot make stones bread, as he was never a god literally; his only distinction was that the Creator –God Allah YHWH revealed Word on him on which depends the spiritual growth of human beings. The Catholics Protestants should listen to Jesus explanation instead of listening to cunning Paul or the Church.
Matthew 4:3-4
1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he was hungry. 3 And the tempter coming said to him: If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him upon the pinnacle of the temple,
I submit more from the OT to establish my view point that Jesus was not literally son of god:
Psalms 81:
1 A psalm for Asaph. God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods. 2 How long will you judge unjustly: and accept the persons of the wicked? 3 Judge for the needy and fatherless: do justice to the humble and the poor. 4 Rescue the poor; and deliver the needy out of the hand of the sinner. 5 They have not known nor understood: they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be moved.
6 I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High. 7 But you like men shall die: and shall fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge thou the earth: for thou shalt inherit among all the nations.
So, the according to the usage of the Bible; the Clergy and the Priests are also the Son of God; nothing special for Jesus.
I think that our Atheists Agnostics would support our principled stance; out of their free will.
paarsurrey 