Posts Tagged ‘Moses’

“Free-will” and “Knowledge of good and evil”

November 9, 2017

One’s point is reasonable. Knowledge of good and evil and then to decide for the right on one’s own free-will is a sign of maturity and is praiseworthy. 

Thread: “Where was god???? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma

 

Post 39: 
[Replying to post 37 by D—-y]

D—-y wrote:
Here is what I wrote:
“You should read the bible. Genesis 2:17 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Since god did not want to eat from the tree and thus have knowledge of good and evil. Without knowing good and evil how could one have free will?”

One’s point is reasonable. Knowledge of good and evil and then to decide for the right on one’s own free-will is a sign of maturity and is praiseworthy.
The narrators/scribes/translators/clergy seem to understand the phenomenon incorrectly. Moses was given both the Law and the Discrimination by YHVH, please:

[2:53] Then We forgave you thereafter, that you might be grateful.
[2:54] And remember the time when We gave Moses the Book and the Discrimination*, that you might be rightly guided.
[2:55] And remember the time when Moses said to his people: ‘O my people, you have indeed wronged yourselves by taking the calf for worship; turn you therefore to your Maker, and kill your evil desires; that is the best for you with your Maker.’ Then He turned towards you with compassion. Surely, He is Oft-Returning with compassion, and is Merciful.
[2:56] And remember when you said: ‘O Moses, we will by no means believe thee until we see Allah face to face;’ then the thunderbolt overtook you, while you gazed.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=53
* knowledge of good and evil to exercise free-will.

Regards

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“What is the correct way to interpret the Bible?”

October 31, 2017

Thread: “Did Jesus and or John the Baptist believe in Trinity? ”

Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Islam

 Post 21: 

—— wrote:
How do you identify which parts were added later? What is your method?

paarsurrey wrote:

Some of them I give below:
1. Jesus was a Jew, he followed the teachings given by Moses so anything in the NT Bible that is against the teachings of Moses, is not from Jesus.
2. Jesus metioned things in the usage of Torah of Moses, so anything Jesus said is to be interpreted from the usage of Moses’ Torah.
3. YHVH’s on attribute is All-Wise, so anything against the normal or against the reason/wisdom or the common sense is not from YHVH whom Jesus believed and addressed as God-the-Father.
4. The most ancient Bibles reportedly didn’t have them but the later versions show them. The textual anaylasis of the Bible done by the scholars point them out.

And there are other points which I mentioned in the thread “What is the correct way to interpret the Bible?”, forum Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma . Right, please?

Regards

OOOOOOOOOOOO

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/jesus-mention-touchstone-of-christian-scriptures/

The method of purification of Bible suggested by me is reasonably inferred from the above Jesus’ core teachings.

1. “This is the first and greatest commandment” hence, I think, Jesus would be happy if it is used as touch stone of his teachings and those which contradict with it are dubious and must be discarded.
2. “All the Law”; here he means that his teachings are for revival of Moses’ law; those of his teachings that conform to it only that must be accepted the rest discarded. This adds further purity to # 1.
3. “And the Prophets”; if the teachings have been mentioned by the prophets that further would ensure correctness.
4. “Love your neighbor as yourself”; all teachings that your neighbors don’t understand being mythical, not accepted by common sense and unreasonable should not be accepted.

Quran also confirms this principle:

[3:8] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. —

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3

I think with this measure Judaism, Christianity and Islam; even other revealed religions (Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism etc) come on to the same page.

hanks and regards

OOOOOOOOOO

Paarsurrey wrote:

The aesthetics as well as the meaning are important.
Whatever the language of a book (here Quran) the meaning of a word is best understood in the verse/sentence it is used, and the true meaning of a sentence is best understood in the passage (some preceding and some following sentences of the verse in focus ), a passage could be best understood in its chapter, and so on a chapter is best understood in the whole book or Quran. Then there is a context of a place (space) and time, there could be many correct translations to a word (or say a verse/sentence/passage/chapter) if the context is not against it (rather approves and supports it). If somebody assumes a wrong meaning, the context could out-rightly reject it. When one tries to understand the things deeply then one has to resort to etymology of the words and etymology of a word brings forth a new realm of meaning, its history, culture etc.
Quran is pragmatic, it addressed the pagan Meccans, then the people around Christians, Jews , Zoroastrians and others; then the whole world at that time, in the past and also in future.
So it is deeper and deeper and deeper; language is not as important as are the meanings, and meaning of life and humanity.
Regards

Quran is best understood “with reference to the context” tool

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-to-read-quran-the-amazing-revealed-recitation-for-correct-understanding.180477/#post-4462672

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend paul8bee

You may start reading Quran. It is not a voluminous book. It might be a little larger than the four gospels combined.

It provides guidance on temporal, moral and spiritual matters. Quran does not want that it should be believed only as a book of authority from an authority. It provides the wisdom to a thing and reason and logical arguments, in a way, that it is not a tedious book like the books of philosophy which are full with difficult terminology not understood by the common man. It mentions wisdom for the Philosophers, experts and the common people all at one time; as it is guidance for everybody.

Even of I don’t quote from the Quran, I write taking wisdom from it which convinces others, as first I am myself convinced with it. If I sometimes mention that I have taken this reasoning from Quran; it is for the reason that it would morally be bad for me if I take something from a sources yet without acknowledging it. Can we ignore the rights of an author? No we cannot.

I think I should give here an example.
As I understand from your blog, you have made a lot of research on spirits, and I appreciate that.

Quran mentions following points in this connection:

1. Everything in the Universe has been created by the Creator God Allah YHWH; if that is correct then logically the spirits which are in this Universe, are created by Him. This is exactly mentioned in Quran, as I understand from it. If you differ with it, no compulsion; then give your reasoning on this point.

2. Creator God, by definition is the one who has created everything, yet He has been created by none; that make Him self-existing. I think you also agree with it; no compulsion.

3. God is only eternal; so logically the spirits are his creation, so the spirits could not be eternal. You may give reasoning if you differ with this; however no compulsion.

4. When partners meet, husband and wife, the creation of a child starts, till it reaches a form fit to receive life. God commands the spirit or soul into the fetus, so it is logical to believe that the spirit or soul grows and or evolves within the fetus. Yet, I acknowledge that I have taken all these points from the Quran. Quran mentions claims and reason.

5. I would like to submit here and one must note it that it is only Quran from amongst the Revealed Word, which provides us the text for a claim and also a pertinent reason thereof within the usual context which often consist on five preceding and five following verses, in my opinion.

6. This make Quran a Book of Systems or a book with wonders, which is sufficient in itself to testify that Quran is not authored by a man, impossible to do by a man, but by the Creator God Allah YHWH himself has authored it.

There is however no compulsion to believe in Quran, blindly. But it will also not be fair if we see a truthful system in it, yet we deny it. It would be just killing the truth, in my opinion.

This is what we experience in our everyday life also. There is no compulsion to believe that this world is physically working under a set of systems, which are only discovered by the scientists yet not created by them. If there would have been no physical systems, rather haphazardness; this Universe won’t work and the Scientists won’t be able to propound theories and discover Laws and making any inventions. They only would find a system or knowledge if it already exists but inherent in the things.

If the Scientists would deny such systems, within and without us, that would tantamount denying the Science and Knowledge and Truth altogether; yet there is no compulsion but only an acknowledgement of the Truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Regards

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/quran-a-book-of-systems-which-is-sufficient-to-testify-that-quran-is-not-authored-by-a/

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/human-interpretation-can-twist-the-entire-message/

Human interpretation can twist the entire message

 

“Jesus mission. Which is it?” 

October 11, 2017

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=889025#889025

Which is it?
Jesus mission.

Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Christianity and Apologetics

Post 28: 

E——n wrote:
Matthew 15.24

Quote:
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 

or

Matthew 28.19

 

Quote:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?

Is the “Risen Christ” on the same page as the pre-Easter, “historical Jesus”?

Paarsurrey wrote:

Jesus’ mission was precisely and specific towards the Beni Israel or children of Israel:

[3:46] When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
[3:49] “And He will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel;
[3:50] “And will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel (to say): ‘I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird, then I will breathe into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you be believers.
[3:51] ‘And I come fulfilling that which is before me, namely, the Torah; and to allow you some of that which was forbidden you; and I come to you with a Sign from your Lord; so fear Allah and obey me.
[3:52] ‘Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord; so worship Him: this is the right path.’ ”
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=49
Jesus was a follower of Moses and was to reform Moses’ followers and set them on teachings descended on Moses from the On-True-God. Jesus mission was not to propagate creeds like Trinity which is similar making and worshiping “Golden Calf” done while Moses was alive and as per Torah Moses had to kill three thousand Jews*.
Right, please?

Regards
_____________
*Exodus 32:28

27 He said to them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'” 28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
http://biblehub.com/exodus/32-28.htm

Judaism: Book of Exodus neither written by Moses nor dictated by him

May 30, 2015

<www.religiousforums.com> in the <thread Judaism: Book of Exodus neither written by Moses nor dictated by him>

Post #5

Paarsurrey wrote:

So many mights for a “holy scripture” make it a bad scripture.
Am I right?

Regards

NewGuyOnTheBlock likes this.

Moses did not found Judaism and name it

May 15, 2015

View,comment and join discussion on< www.religiousforums.com > topic<Judaism>

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/judaism.176951/page-2#post-4289707

Post #22

Judaism

Paarsurrey wrote:

Moses did not found Judaism and name it as such, he also did not name his followers as Jews.
Regards

Prophets: Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus

July 4, 2014

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3827858-post80.html
Please click the above link to know the context of discussion and join the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinayaka

“paarsurrey, I feel you will continue to project your idea about what a prophet is onto Hinduism, even if 100 Hindus came here and told you Hinduism doesn’t have prophets. So you will always have your ‘truth’ and we will always have ours.

This is the result of subconscious mind (memory mind) conditioning, and quite understandable. You’ve read or been told over and over that all religions have prophets, so have come to believe it.” Unquote

Paarsurrey wrote:

This sub-forum is not DIR; when somebody writes here, it implies that one wants an open discussion.

There are Hindu denominations who think that Krishna definitely made a prophecy for the latter days; and I quoted it from a Hindu site.

If some or many or all Hindus consider Krishna a god; not withstanding that approach, he made a prophecy for future that stands fulfilled now; so in this sense he is a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

This prophecy has many parallels.

Likewise Jesus made a prophecy for the latter days; his Second Coming in the End of times; and everybody here knows that Christians consider Jesus a god, not withstanding that approach, he made a prophecy that stands fulfilled now, so in this sense Jesus is a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise Buddha; though not all Buddhists worship him as god. I consider Buddha also a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise Zoroaster; but his followers definitely don’t worship him and are monotheists and I have read many of their scriptures, very beautiful scriptures. So I have no reason not to believe in his being a truthful prophet and no reason not to believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise Moses; though the Judaism people don’t consider him god; but definitely in “image of G-d”. And Judaism people also wait for a Moshiach.I consider Moses also a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise… and likewise and likewise…

Where do I err please?

Since some other non-Hindus; probably or most probably Christians also written here.

Should the globe be divided into many parts; one created and ruled by Krishna and another created and ruled by Jesus. Should we reasonably and rationally divide the humanity in pieces and the infinite pieces as there are said to be 32000+ denominations of Christianity and innumerable (exact figure not known, please tell me exactly) denominations of Hinduism and other religions .

While apparently there is no difference between a human in the East or human in the West and North and South.

My questions are addressed to everybody and open for response to everybody.

To make it clear; I am and Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Regards

Jews doing things against prime teachings of Moses: they are “rebellious”

June 24, 2014

Please access the following link to know the context of discussion and to joint it.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3815901-post625.html

Originally Posted by Avi1001
“Was it because Torah was shared or because Rome was occupying Israel and the Sanhedrin took action against Jesus, subsequently followed by his crucifixion by the Romans? It seems to me you are confounding cause and effect.” Unquote

Paarsurrey wrote:
It was a wrong done by the Jewish scribes and confirmed the rebellious nature of the Jews at that time prophesied by Moses:

27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

As per prime teachings of Moses; the Jews must have accepted Jesus as their religious leader instead of trying to persecute him.

Regards

“How Odd of G-d to Choose the Jews”: Golden Calf

June 16, 2014

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3808508-post14.html

To view the post, the context of the discussion and to join the discussion, please access the above link:

“How Odd of G-d to Choose the Jews” (Topic of the thread)

Paarsurrey wrote:

This drama or story never happened.

The Jews hardly heard and obeyed Moses. When Moses went to the mountain; they made a Golden Calf.
Consequently the calf was burnt:

Moses went down from the mountain, but upon seeing the calf, he became angry and threw down the two Tablets of Stone, breaking them. Moses burnt the golden calf in a fire, ground it to powder, scattered it on water, and forced the Israelites to drink it.

Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said: ‘Whoso is on the LORD’s side, let him come unto me.’ And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them: ‘Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.’ And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. (Exodus 32:26-28)

Golden calf – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jews of the time did not come up to hearing and obeying as per the story of the their selection from among the people of the world.

Did they?

Regards

Moses, Isaiah and Jeremiah confirm that scribes corrupted Torah

June 15, 2014

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3807472-post1124.html

CMike wrote in post #1105 about Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9, 24, 26-29

Quote:
There are no mistakes in the Torah.

Paarsurrey wrote:

And the verses Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9, 24, 26-29 are:

9. Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
26. “Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.
27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, and I will speak these words into their ears, and I will call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses against them.
29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

That confirmed as per Moses and Torah, ark of covenant and heaven and earth stood as witness that Jews were rebellious and stubborn people and would remain as such:

1. For I (Moses) know your (the Jews) rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
2. Jews “will surely become corrupted”
3. Jews will “deviate from the way which I had commanded you”
4. Jews will “provoke Him (G-d) to anger through the work of your (their) hands.

It is a prophesy of Moses that the narrator and scribes of Torah would get corrupted and would corrupt the scriptures; later Isaiah (vide Chapter 24:1-6) and Jeremiah (vide Chapter 8:8-9) only confirmed fulfillment of what Moses had prophesied.

Jews should not doubt it; if they doubt they only show that they are stubborn and rebel against G-d and have deviated from the way commanded by Moses and they provoke anger of G-d.

Regards

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Isaiah – Chapter 24:1-6

1. Behold the Lord empties the land and lays it waste, and He shall turn over its face and scatter its inhabitants. א. הִנֵּה יְהֹוָה בּוֹקֵק הָאָרֶץ וּבוֹלְקָהּ וְעִוָּה פָנֶיהָ וְהֵפִיץ יֹשְׁבֶיהָ:
2. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest, as with the slave, so with his master, as with the maidservant, so with her mistress, as with the buyer, so with the seller, as with the lender, so with the borrower, as with the creditor, so with the one who owes him. ב. וְהָיָה כָעָם כַּכֹּהֵן כַּעֶבֶד כַּאדֹנָיו כַּשִּׁפְחָה כַּגְּבִרְתָּהּ כַּקּוֹנֶה כַּמּוֹכֵר כַּמַּלְוֶה כַּלּוֶֹה כַּנֹּשֶׁה כַּאֲשֶׁר נֹשֶׁא בוֹ:
3. The land shall be emptied and it shall be pillaged, for the Lord has spoken this thing. ג. הִבּוֹק | תִּבּוֹק הָאָרֶץ וְהִבּוֹז | תִּבּוֹז כִּי יְהֹוָה דִּבֶּר אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה:
4. The land has mourned, it has withered, the land has been humbled and withered, the highest of the people of the land have been humbled. ד. אָבְלָה נָבְלָה הָאָרֶץ אֻמְלְלָה נָבְלָה תֵּבֵל אֻמְלָלוּ מְרוֹם עַם הָאָרֶץ:
5. And the land has deceived because of its inhabitants, for they transgressed instructions, infracted statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. ה. וְהָאָרֶץ חָנְפָה תַּחַת יֹשְׁבֶיהָ כִּי עָבְרוּ תוֹרֹת חָלְפוּ חֹק הֵפֵרוּ בְּרִית עוֹלָם:
6. Therefore, an oath has consumed the land, and the inhabitants thereof were wasted; therefore, the inhabitants of the land were dried up, and few people remained.

Yeshayahu – Chapter 24 – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15955/jewish/Chapter-24.htm

Jeremiah – Chapter 8:8-9
8. How do you say, “We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us”? Verily, behold it is in vain, he made a false scribes’ pen.
9. Wise men were ashamed, they were broken and caught; behold they rejected the word of the Lord, now what wisdom have they?

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16005

Where is the scroll that Moses gave to Levites?

June 10, 2014

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3800738-post1067.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMike

“That’s why G-D gave the oral law as well on Mt. Sinai.” Unquote

Paarsurrey wrote:

Where is the scroll that Moses gave to Levites?

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9,24,26-29

9. Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
26. “Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.
27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, and I will speak these words into their ears, and I will call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses against them.
29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9995

Regards