Posts Tagged ‘Moses’

Direct Converse of God: Moses: Muhammad

February 19, 2021
Religious Forums

One may like to join discussion on following interesting thread on RF my favorite discussion forum and view my post #24


Excerpt from Rxxxxx’s Post: ” Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God.” View full post of the poster at the end of my response.

paarsurrey wrote Post #24

This is not as to how the things happened.
When G-d has a Converse with a person, the person knows without a doubt that G-d/Allah is talking to him or he is talking to G-d/Allah, for sure and with certainty.
Muhammad did not invent the word Allah, the Meccan Arabians believed in Allah, they only worshiped idols as the intercessors to Him, out of their superstitions. Muhammad”s father’s name was Abdullah (Abd-Allah) meaning the Servant of Allah.
Quran mentions as to how Allah had a Converse with Moses:

[20:9] اَللّٰہُ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّا ہُوَ ؕ لَہُ الۡاَسۡمَآءُ الۡحُسۡنٰی ﴿۹﴾
Allah — there is no God but He. His are the most beautiful names.
20:10] وَ ہَلۡ اَتٰٮکَ حَدِیۡثُ مُوۡسٰی ۘ﴿۱۰﴾
And has the story of Moses come to thee?
20:11] اِذۡ رَاٰ نَارًا فَقَالَ لِاَہۡلِہِ امۡکُثُوۡۤا اِنِّیۡۤ اٰنَسۡتُ نَارًا لَّعَلِّیۡۤ اٰتِیۡکُمۡ مِّنۡہَا بِقَبَسٍ اَوۡ اَجِدُ عَلَی النَّارِ ہُدًی ﴿۱۱﴾
When he saw a fire, he said to his family, ‘Tarry ye, I perceive a fire; perhaps I may bring you a brand therefrom or find guidance at the fire.’
20:12] فَلَمَّاۤ اَتٰٮہَا نُوۡدِیَ یٰمُوۡسٰی ﴿ؕ۱۲﴾
And when he came to it, he was called by a voice, ‘O Moses,
اِنِّیۡۤ اَنَا رَبُّکَ فَاخۡلَعۡ نَعۡلَیۡکَ ۚ اِنَّکَ بِالۡوَادِ الۡمُقَدَّسِ طُوًی ﴿ؕ۱۳﴾
‘Verily, I am thy Lord. So take off thy shoes; for thou art in the sacred Valley of Tuwa.
20:14] وَ اَنَا اخۡتَرۡتُکَ فَاسۡتَمِعۡ لِمَا یُوۡحٰی ﴿۱۴﴾
‘And I have chosen thee; so hearken to what is revealed.
20:15] اِنَّنِیۡۤ اَنَا اللّٰہُ لَاۤ اِلٰہَ اِلَّاۤ اَنَا فَاعۡبُدۡنِیۡ ۙ وَ اَقِمِ الصَّلٰوۃَ لِذِکۡرِیۡ ﴿۱۵﴾
‘Verily, I am Allah; there is no God beside Me. So serve Me, and observe Prayer for My remembrance.
20:16] اِنَّ السَّاعَۃَ اٰتِیَۃٌ اَکَادُ اُخۡفِیۡہَا لِتُجۡزٰی کُلُّ نَفۡسٍۭ بِمَا تَسۡعٰی ﴿۱۶﴾
‘Surely, the Hour is coming; I am going to manifest it, that every soul may be recompensed for its endeavour.
20:17] فَلَا یَصُدَّنَّکَ عَنۡہَا مَنۡ لَّا یُؤۡمِنُ بِہَا وَ اتَّبَعَ ہَوٰٮہُ فَتَرۡدٰی ﴿۱۷﴾
‘So let not him who believes not therein and follows his own evil inclinations, turn thee away therefrom, lest thou perish.
20:18] وَ مَا تِلۡکَ بِیَمِیۡنِکَ یٰمُوۡسٰی ﴿۱۸﴾
‘And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?’
20:19] قَالَ ہِیَ عَصَایَ ۚ اَتَوَکَّوٴُا عَلَیۡہَا وَ اَہُشُّ بِہَا عَلٰی غَنَمِیۡ وَ لِیَ فِیۡہَا مَاٰرِبُ اُخۡرٰی ﴿۱۹﴾
He replied, ‘This is my rod, I lean on it, and beat down therewith leaves for my sheep, and I have also other uses for it.’
20:20] قَالَ اَلۡقِہَا یٰمُوۡسٰی ﴿۲۰﴾
He said, ‘Cast it down, O Moses.’
20:21] فَاَلۡقٰہَا فَاِذَا ہِیَ حَیَّۃٌ تَسۡعٰی ﴿۲۱﴾
So he cast it down, and behold! it was a serpent running.
20:22] قَالَ خُذۡہَا وَ لَا تَخَفۡ ٝ سَنُعِیۡدُہَا سِیۡرَتَہَا الۡاُوۡلٰی ﴿۲۲﴾
God said, ‘Catch hold of it, and fear not. We shall restore it to its former condition.
20:23] وَ اضۡمُمۡ یَدَکَ اِلٰی جَنَاحِکَ تَخۡرُجۡ بَیۡضَآءَ مِنۡ غَیۡرِ سُوۡٓءٍ اٰیَۃً اُخۡرٰی ﴿ۙ۲۳﴾
‘And draw thy hand close under thy armpit. It shall come forth white, without any disease — another Sign,
20:24] لِنُرِیَکَ مِنۡ اٰیٰتِنَا الۡکُبۡرٰی ﴿ۚ۲۴﴾
‘That We may show thee some of Our greater Signs.

The Holy Quran – Chapter: 20: TaHa

So, it is a direct Converse of G-d with the Messenger of G-d in which a dialogue takes place and the Messenger has no doubt about it, please. Right friend, please?



Rxxxxxxx said: I have a question about the Quran/Islam. First of all, don’t take me wrongly, you all are great people. So, I’m not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I’m asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions as in general.

So here is a hypothetical scenario to explain the issue:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God and on the other hand Gabriel states that Allah is the God. Since he has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to so many Christian leaders and tries to clarify this point (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leaders? Will they tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true?

Let me show you the issue here:

Based on recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad(Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believe that Jesus is the God’s son). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they know this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God and tell that Allah is the God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God(Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad’s case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was lying or not?)

(Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders.

To fix this issue, let’s say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says:
Quran 3:42 ‘… O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds’

Quran 5:75 ‘… His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.’

Quran 21:91 ‘And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.’

Quran 3:3 ‘She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.’ (Guardian & Uncle)

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders believe, is because of Allah’s actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let’s say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders(till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years(had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst. Cause because of the Quran, now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs.

Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

“Free-will” and “Knowledge of good and evil”

November 9, 2017

One’s point is reasonable. Knowledge of good and evil and then to decide for the right on one’s own free-will is a sign of maturity and is praiseworthy. 

Thread: “Where was god???? “Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma


Post 39: 
[Replying to post 37 by D—-y]

D—-y wrote:
Here is what I wrote:
“You should read the bible. Genesis 2:17 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Since god did not want to eat from the tree and thus have knowledge of good and evil. Without knowing good and evil how could one have free will?”

One’s point is reasonable. Knowledge of good and evil and then to decide for the right on one’s own free-will is a sign of maturity and is praiseworthy.
The narrators/scribes/translators/clergy seem to understand the phenomenon incorrectly. Moses was given both the Law and the Discrimination by YHVH, please:

[2:53] Then We forgave you thereafter, that you might be grateful.
[2:54] And remember the time when We gave Moses the Book and the Discrimination*, that you might be rightly guided.
[2:55] And remember the time when Moses said to his people: ‘O my people, you have indeed wronged yourselves by taking the calf for worship; turn you therefore to your Maker, and kill your evil desires; that is the best for you with your Maker.’ Then He turned towards you with compassion. Surely, He is Oft-Returning with compassion, and is Merciful.
[2:56] And remember when you said: ‘O Moses, we will by no means believe thee until we see Allah face to face;’ then the thunderbolt overtook you, while you gazed.
* knowledge of good and evil to exercise free-will.


“What is the correct way to interpret the Bible?”

October 31, 2017

Thread: “Did Jesus and or John the Baptist believe in Trinity? ”

Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Islam

 Post 21: 

—— wrote:
How do you identify which parts were added later? What is your method?

paarsurrey wrote:

Some of them I give below:
1. Jesus was a Jew, he followed the teachings given by Moses so anything in the NT Bible that is against the teachings of Moses, is not from Jesus.
2. Jesus metioned things in the usage of Torah of Moses, so anything Jesus said is to be interpreted from the usage of Moses’ Torah.
3. YHVH’s on attribute is All-Wise, so anything against the normal or against the reason/wisdom or the common sense is not from YHVH whom Jesus believed and addressed as God-the-Father.
4. The most ancient Bibles reportedly didn’t have them but the later versions show them. The textual anaylasis of the Bible done by the scholars point them out.

And there are other points which I mentioned in the thread “What is the correct way to interpret the Bible?”, forum Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma . Right, please?



The method of purification of Bible suggested by me is reasonably inferred from the above Jesus’ core teachings.

1. “This is the first and greatest commandment” hence, I think, Jesus would be happy if it is used as touch stone of his teachings and those which contradict with it are dubious and must be discarded.
2. “All the Law”; here he means that his teachings are for revival of Moses’ law; those of his teachings that conform to it only that must be accepted the rest discarded. This adds further purity to # 1.
3. “And the Prophets”; if the teachings have been mentioned by the prophets that further would ensure correctness.
4. “Love your neighbor as yourself”; all teachings that your neighbors don’t understand being mythical, not accepted by common sense and unreasonable should not be accepted.

Quran also confirms this principle:

[3:8] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. —

I think with this measure Judaism, Christianity and Islam; even other revealed religions (Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism etc) come on to the same page.

hanks and regards


Paarsurrey wrote:

The aesthetics as well as the meaning are important.
Whatever the language of a book (here Quran) the meaning of a word is best understood in the verse/sentence it is used, and the true meaning of a sentence is best understood in the passage (some preceding and some following sentences of the verse in focus ), a passage could be best understood in its chapter, and so on a chapter is best understood in the whole book or Quran. Then there is a context of a place (space) and time, there could be many correct translations to a word (or say a verse/sentence/passage/chapter) if the context is not against it (rather approves and supports it). If somebody assumes a wrong meaning, the context could out-rightly reject it. When one tries to understand the things deeply then one has to resort to etymology of the words and etymology of a word brings forth a new realm of meaning, its history, culture etc.
Quran is pragmatic, it addressed the pagan Meccans, then the people around Christians, Jews , Zoroastrians and others; then the whole world at that time, in the past and also in future.
So it is deeper and deeper and deeper; language is not as important as are the meanings, and meaning of life and humanity.

Quran is best understood “with reference to the context” tool

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend paul8bee

You may start reading Quran. It is not a voluminous book. It might be a little larger than the four gospels combined.

It provides guidance on temporal, moral and spiritual matters. Quran does not want that it should be believed only as a book of authority from an authority. It provides the wisdom to a thing and reason and logical arguments, in a way, that it is not a tedious book like the books of philosophy which are full with difficult terminology not understood by the common man. It mentions wisdom for the Philosophers, experts and the common people all at one time; as it is guidance for everybody.

Even of I don’t quote from the Quran, I write taking wisdom from it which convinces others, as first I am myself convinced with it. If I sometimes mention that I have taken this reasoning from Quran; it is for the reason that it would morally be bad for me if I take something from a sources yet without acknowledging it. Can we ignore the rights of an author? No we cannot.

I think I should give here an example.
As I understand from your blog, you have made a lot of research on spirits, and I appreciate that.

Quran mentions following points in this connection:

1. Everything in the Universe has been created by the Creator God Allah YHWH; if that is correct then logically the spirits which are in this Universe, are created by Him. This is exactly mentioned in Quran, as I understand from it. If you differ with it, no compulsion; then give your reasoning on this point.

2. Creator God, by definition is the one who has created everything, yet He has been created by none; that make Him self-existing. I think you also agree with it; no compulsion.

3. God is only eternal; so logically the spirits are his creation, so the spirits could not be eternal. You may give reasoning if you differ with this; however no compulsion.

4. When partners meet, husband and wife, the creation of a child starts, till it reaches a form fit to receive life. God commands the spirit or soul into the fetus, so it is logical to believe that the spirit or soul grows and or evolves within the fetus. Yet, I acknowledge that I have taken all these points from the Quran. Quran mentions claims and reason.

5. I would like to submit here and one must note it that it is only Quran from amongst the Revealed Word, which provides us the text for a claim and also a pertinent reason thereof within the usual context which often consist on five preceding and five following verses, in my opinion.

6. This make Quran a Book of Systems or a book with wonders, which is sufficient in itself to testify that Quran is not authored by a man, impossible to do by a man, but by the Creator God Allah YHWH himself has authored it.

There is however no compulsion to believe in Quran, blindly. But it will also not be fair if we see a truthful system in it, yet we deny it. It would be just killing the truth, in my opinion.

This is what we experience in our everyday life also. There is no compulsion to believe that this world is physically working under a set of systems, which are only discovered by the scientists yet not created by them. If there would have been no physical systems, rather haphazardness; this Universe won’t work and the Scientists won’t be able to propound theories and discover Laws and making any inventions. They only would find a system or knowledge if it already exists but inherent in the things.

If the Scientists would deny such systems, within and without us, that would tantamount denying the Science and Knowledge and Truth altogether; yet there is no compulsion but only an acknowledgement of the Truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.


I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Human interpretation can twist the entire message


“Jesus mission. Which is it?” 

October 11, 2017

Which is it?
Jesus mission.

Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Christianity and Apologetics

Post 28: 

E——n wrote:
Matthew 15.24

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”



Matthew 28.19


Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


What was Jesus mission, his intended audience?

How does one reconcile the two seemingly contradictory statements?

Is the “Risen Christ” on the same page as the pre-Easter, “historical Jesus”?

Paarsurrey wrote:

Jesus’ mission was precisely and specific towards the Beni Israel or children of Israel:

[3:46] When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
[3:49] “And He will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel;
[3:50] “And will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel (to say): ‘I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird, then I will breathe into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you be believers.
[3:51] ‘And I come fulfilling that which is before me, namely, the Torah; and to allow you some of that which was forbidden you; and I come to you with a Sign from your Lord; so fear Allah and obey me.
[3:52] ‘Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord; so worship Him: this is the right path.’ ”
Jesus was a follower of Moses and was to reform Moses’ followers and set them on teachings descended on Moses from the On-True-God. Jesus mission was not to propagate creeds like Trinity which is similar making and worshiping “Golden Calf” done while Moses was alive and as per Torah Moses had to kill three thousand Jews*.
Right, please?

*Exodus 32:28

27 He said to them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'” 28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.

Judaism: Book of Exodus neither written by Moses nor dictated by him

May 30, 2015

<> in the <thread Judaism: Book of Exodus neither written by Moses nor dictated by him>

Post #5

Paarsurrey wrote:

So many mights for a “holy scripture” make it a bad scripture.
Am I right?


NewGuyOnTheBlock likes this.

Moses did not found Judaism and name it

May 15, 2015

View,comment and join discussion on< > topic<Judaism>

Post #22


Paarsurrey wrote:

Moses did not found Judaism and name it as such, he also did not name his followers as Jews.

Prophets: Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus

July 4, 2014
Please click the above link to know the context of discussion and join the discussion.

Originally Posted by Vinayaka

“paarsurrey, I feel you will continue to project your idea about what a prophet is onto Hinduism, even if 100 Hindus came here and told you Hinduism doesn’t have prophets. So you will always have your ‘truth’ and we will always have ours.

This is the result of subconscious mind (memory mind) conditioning, and quite understandable. You’ve read or been told over and over that all religions have prophets, so have come to believe it.” Unquote

Paarsurrey wrote:

This sub-forum is not DIR; when somebody writes here, it implies that one wants an open discussion.

There are Hindu denominations who think that Krishna definitely made a prophecy for the latter days; and I quoted it from a Hindu site.

If some or many or all Hindus consider Krishna a god; not withstanding that approach, he made a prophecy for future that stands fulfilled now; so in this sense he is a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

This prophecy has many parallels.

Likewise Jesus made a prophecy for the latter days; his Second Coming in the End of times; and everybody here knows that Christians consider Jesus a god, not withstanding that approach, he made a prophecy that stands fulfilled now, so in this sense Jesus is a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise Buddha; though not all Buddhists worship him as god. I consider Buddha also a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise Zoroaster; but his followers definitely don’t worship him and are monotheists and I have read many of their scriptures, very beautiful scriptures. So I have no reason not to believe in his being a truthful prophet and no reason not to believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise Moses; though the Judaism people don’t consider him god; but definitely in “image of G-d”. And Judaism people also wait for a Moshiach.I consider Moses also a truthful prophet and I love him and believe in his truthfulness.

Likewise… and likewise and likewise…

Where do I err please?

Since some other non-Hindus; probably or most probably Christians also written here.

Should the globe be divided into many parts; one created and ruled by Krishna and another created and ruled by Jesus. Should we reasonably and rationally divide the humanity in pieces and the infinite pieces as there are said to be 32000+ denominations of Christianity and innumerable (exact figure not known, please tell me exactly) denominations of Hinduism and other religions .

While apparently there is no difference between a human in the East or human in the West and North and South.

My questions are addressed to everybody and open for response to everybody.

To make it clear; I am and Ahmadi peaceful Muslim


Jews doing things against prime teachings of Moses: they are “rebellious”

June 24, 2014

Please access the following link to know the context of discussion and to joint it.

Originally Posted by Avi1001
“Was it because Torah was shared or because Rome was occupying Israel and the Sanhedrin took action against Jesus, subsequently followed by his crucifixion by the Romans? It seems to me you are confounding cause and effect.” Unquote

Paarsurrey wrote:
It was a wrong done by the Jewish scribes and confirmed the rebellious nature of the Jews at that time prophesied by Moses:

27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

As per prime teachings of Moses; the Jews must have accepted Jesus as their religious leader instead of trying to persecute him.


“How Odd of G-d to Choose the Jews”: Golden Calf

June 16, 2014

To view the post, the context of the discussion and to join the discussion, please access the above link:

“How Odd of G-d to Choose the Jews” (Topic of the thread)

Paarsurrey wrote:

This drama or story never happened.

The Jews hardly heard and obeyed Moses. When Moses went to the mountain; they made a Golden Calf.
Consequently the calf was burnt:

Moses went down from the mountain, but upon seeing the calf, he became angry and threw down the two Tablets of Stone, breaking them. Moses burnt the golden calf in a fire, ground it to powder, scattered it on water, and forced the Israelites to drink it.

Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said: ‘Whoso is on the LORD’s side, let him come unto me.’ And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them: ‘Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.’ And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. (Exodus 32:26-28)

Golden calf – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jews of the time did not come up to hearing and obeying as per the story of the their selection from among the people of the world.

Did they?


Moses, Isaiah and Jeremiah confirm that scribes corrupted Torah

June 15, 2014

CMike wrote in post #1105 about Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9, 24, 26-29

There are no mistakes in the Torah.

Paarsurrey wrote:

And the verses Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9, 24, 26-29 are:

9. Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
26. “Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.
27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, and I will speak these words into their ears, and I will call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses against them.
29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

That confirmed as per Moses and Torah, ark of covenant and heaven and earth stood as witness that Jews were rebellious and stubborn people and would remain as such:

1. For I (Moses) know your (the Jews) rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
2. Jews “will surely become corrupted”
3. Jews will “deviate from the way which I had commanded you”
4. Jews will “provoke Him (G-d) to anger through the work of your (their) hands.

It is a prophesy of Moses that the narrator and scribes of Torah would get corrupted and would corrupt the scriptures; later Isaiah (vide Chapter 24:1-6) and Jeremiah (vide Chapter 8:8-9) only confirmed fulfillment of what Moses had prophesied.

Jews should not doubt it; if they doubt they only show that they are stubborn and rebel against G-d and have deviated from the way commanded by Moses and they provoke anger of G-d.



Isaiah – Chapter 24:1-6

1. Behold the Lord empties the land and lays it waste, and He shall turn over its face and scatter its inhabitants. א. הִנֵּה יְהֹוָה בּוֹקֵק הָאָרֶץ וּבוֹלְקָהּ וְעִוָּה פָנֶיהָ וְהֵפִיץ יֹשְׁבֶיהָ:
2. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest, as with the slave, so with his master, as with the maidservant, so with her mistress, as with the buyer, so with the seller, as with the lender, so with the borrower, as with the creditor, so with the one who owes him. ב. וְהָיָה כָעָם כַּכֹּהֵן כַּעֶבֶד כַּאדֹנָיו כַּשִּׁפְחָה כַּגְּבִרְתָּהּ כַּקּוֹנֶה כַּמּוֹכֵר כַּמַּלְוֶה כַּלּוֶֹה כַּנֹּשֶׁה כַּאֲשֶׁר נֹשֶׁא בוֹ:
3. The land shall be emptied and it shall be pillaged, for the Lord has spoken this thing. ג. הִבּוֹק | תִּבּוֹק הָאָרֶץ וְהִבּוֹז | תִּבּוֹז כִּי יְהֹוָה דִּבֶּר אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה:
4. The land has mourned, it has withered, the land has been humbled and withered, the highest of the people of the land have been humbled. ד. אָבְלָה נָבְלָה הָאָרֶץ אֻמְלְלָה נָבְלָה תֵּבֵל אֻמְלָלוּ מְרוֹם עַם הָאָרֶץ:
5. And the land has deceived because of its inhabitants, for they transgressed instructions, infracted statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. ה. וְהָאָרֶץ חָנְפָה תַּחַת יֹשְׁבֶיהָ כִּי עָבְרוּ תוֹרֹת חָלְפוּ חֹק הֵפֵרוּ בְּרִית עוֹלָם:
6. Therefore, an oath has consumed the land, and the inhabitants thereof were wasted; therefore, the inhabitants of the land were dried up, and few people remained.

Yeshayahu – Chapter 24 – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

Jeremiah – Chapter 8:8-9
8. How do you say, “We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us”? Verily, behold it is in vain, he made a false scribes’ pen.
9. Wise men were ashamed, they were broken and caught; behold they rejected the word of the Lord, now what wisdom have they?

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