The viewers should access the following link to know the context of the discussion; and only then one should form one’s own sincere and independent opinion.
PAARSURREY says:
April 19, 2014 at 10:46 am
@INSPIREDBYTHEDIVINE1 :April 19, 2014 at 8:52 am
” ‘God sacrificed himself, to himself, to save humanity from himself.
Because that makes perfect sense’
This baseless creed has been invented by sinful Paul and sinful Church.”
This is fascinating. I’d forgotten that Islam doesn’t favor Paul. Christians do though. Thus, right here in John’s backyard, we have not one, but two omnipotent religious experts on the origins of existence. However, the two experts are members of two very different all-knowing religions. Paul is not vile to a Christians. To Christians he is a Saint and the true spreader of Christianity. But to Muslims, he is vile and evil. He spread untrue ideas about Jesus around. Two vastly different views from two totally infallible faiths. Is Paul a Saint and wonderful, or is he a vile idiot who spread a baseless creed about the Holy Trinity. Both can not be right. Calling Paul baseless and vile means the Holy Trinity is made up bullshit and Jesus isn’t God and did not rise from the dead on Easter. Saying Paul’s a Saint and his creed correct, is saying Jesus is God; did rise from the dead, and, along with two other gods, is part of a trilogy of gods that, in reality, are just one god. SOM’s infallible faith and Paarsurey’s infallible faith can not both be right. Only one can be right on this. Is, or isn’t Jesus the one true God? Let me repeat, is Jesus or isn’t Jesus God? Is Paul a vile idiot, or a Saint in Christ’s Church, the Church of the one true God. Things get so bloody complicated when people simply can’t say, “I don’t know. I might be wrong,etc.” I do not know nor pretend to know, how the universe came to be. It’s existence is proof it exists, not proof magical fairies made it. I do not have faith gods do not exist, BTW. They might, and I’m open to meeting them when they show up, but as of today, I’ve seen no evidence for believing they have. SOM, your brain hasn’t just been washed, it’s been bleached, salted, and fried. Your views are fundamentally sophomoric and reflective of an insipid indoctrination into an antiquated and dying belief system. Your rhetoric is redundantly circular, your reasoning laden with confirmation biases and your lack of wit tedious, boring, and insulting to the intelligence. Thus, whenever I respond to it, I do so with the all the respect I feel it deserves. I’ve said my last bit on this matter as I’ve grown quite bored of it. Paul: vile creed maker and vile man or Saint? Jesus, prophet, or God?” Unquote
I don’t bash sinful Paul. I only defend Jesus and Mary and their teachings. I have mentioned core teachings of Jesus from the Bible (Matthew 22:36-40); there is no place in Jesus’ core teachings of the baseless creeds invented by sinful Paul, sinful scribes and the sinful Church.
I have qualified Paul, scribes and Church with the word “sinful”; because they collaborated to invent the creed of “original sin” out of thin air and made all humanity sinful by birth for nothing. They say that everybody is sinful except Jesus; and everybody does not exclude Paul, scribes and the Church. I have only highlighted what this baseless creed is.
All humans whatever their religion or no religion are born innocent; when they attain maturity and are confirmed of what is good and what is evil in their conscience; then they become virtuous or sinful as per their concepts and deeds.
If a sin is committed one could ask forgiveness from the One-True-God; He may forgive.
Jesus said he was Son of Man or Son of Adam; if Adam would have been a sinful person and Jesus would have believed that and of the original sin; he would have not ascribed any son-ship to Adam. Paul invented this creed on his own collaborated by the scribes of Bible and Church.
Paul, scribes and the Church have nothing to do with Jesus and Mary and their teachings and deeds.
Bible is not written by Jesus or dictated by Him; it is written by anonymous and sinful scribes; so it is not in-errant.
One big example of its being errant is its failure to record that Jesus did not die a cursed death on the Cross. Jesus survived and migrated to India. This one example shatters the myth of the inerrancy of the Bible. Just with this truth the edifice of Christianity comes to the ground.
One could view the following documentaries in this connection:
1. BBC Documentary
2. Jesus in Kashmir (India)-Documentary by Indian Govt.
The West must love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran as their Social role Model to save the family institution- a natural bond, instead of following the Celebrity Culture so rampant in West perhaps mostly promoted by the confused Atheists Agnostic having no revealed Book or a natural system for life.
It is true that the reason oriented and enlightened Christians find no rational hero in the mythical concepts of Jesus- being son of god or god, and Mary- as an intercession, presented by cunning Paul and Church and the sinful scribes; and hence they leave Christianity silently .The Celebrity culture hardly promotes any family bond for sure.
The Church and the Christians should therefore present Jesus and Mary of Quran as a role model to salvage all such people.
This is also useful for the Atheists to become pro-life.
The Bible had many writers with revelations that added to the message of God, and they were often eyewitnesses to the events they wrote about.
Hi friend ThereIs1Adonai
I don’t agree with the contents of your post due to following reasons, to start with.
1. Paul never spent anytime with Jesus, he was therefore not an eyewitness; yet his accounts have been included in the Bible for nothing.
2. The theme of the Bible, a human devised theme, is to mention the event of the Cross. None of the four gospel writers was an eyewitness of the event of the crucifixion of Jesus. As per Matthew; they all fled away.
3. Jesus did receive Word of Revelation from the Creator-God Allah YHWH; none of the scribes of NT received any Word from the Creator- God Allah YHWH; they were not capable of receiving it as they were sinful persons. They deserted Jesus when he needed them most.
4. Even the account of the event of the Cross they wrote from hearsay was incorrect; as Jesus never died on Cross, he was though put on the Cross, yet he was delivered from it in a near-dead position. The Creator- God Allah YHWH saved his life like He saved Jonah’s life in a very difficult and odd postion. He was treated in the tomb he was laid in by his trusted friends and when his injuries inflicted on the Cross got healed he migrated to the lost sheep of Israel who were in exile.
Paul and the gospel writers were therefore, in my opinion, not trustworthy persons and Jesus had in effect warned against such persons.
Atheists Agnostics to please join the discussion on this issue believing in God and the Revelation first.
“The truth, in my opinion, is that Jesus was not God; he never proclaimed as such, there are no direct quotes from him in this regards. God talked with Jesus and revealed His word on him, He chose Jesus his Messenger/Prophet/Messiah, Jesus was not a son of God.”
Joel said:
Ah, but He most certainly did make the claim that He was God. Though He never goes throughout ancient Israel saying, “Hey, I’m God,” He does many things and says many things that assert His claim to divinity – and the Pharisees noticed it. Let us look at some of the evidence:
Paarsurrey says:
Hi fried Joel
Please quote from Jesus; not from what the sinful and unfaithful scribes, who deserted Jesus when he most needed them.Later they sided with Paul who was an enemy of Jesus and his friends.
Jesus never could utter such words that he was a god. You say the Pharisees noticed it; I don’t agree with you. The Pharisees were Jews; had they noticed it, it should have been written also in the book of the Jews? Please quote from Jewish source that the Pharisees noticed it.
Jesus denies of this claim as rightly quoted by Quran from Jesus:
[5:117] And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”, he will answer, “Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things.
[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.
[5:119] “If Thou punish them, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them, Thou surely art the Mighty, the Wise.”
God Allah YHWH accounted from Jesus of what the Christians only made up on his behalf; and Jesus denies that he ever claimed to be god or son of god; which is only a mistake of cunning Paul and the Church which followed Paul. It has nothing to do with Jesus, I think.
Please tell me if you are from the JWs or the Mormons; kindly do not mind.
Consider this…Dying with Jesus would have been easier than carrying on the work Jesus began while being pursued under threat of death throughout the lands. Why repeatedly risk death? Such acts require courage. Dying is easy. Doing one’s duty…completing one’s mission…in spite of the threat of enemy death…takes courage some suggest requires divine assistance.
Paarsurrey says:
Sorry, I don’t agree with you on this.
The scribes witnessed without being present on the scene of crucifixion; they did things not with the permission of their master Jesus; so it is weird to say they were couragious.
They never carried out the work of Jesus; they fullfilled cunning Paul’s or their own agenda, which was different from Jesus in teachings as well as in Acts. Jesus was at that time in India; and was unaware of their wrong doings at Rome.
I think you are wrong to judge me. I have read the Old Testament and the New Testament from cover to cover.
Jesus did never read the New Testament; he read the Old Testament and he never asked any body to read the faulty New Testament prepared/collected/authored by his clever enemy Paul and the sinful discples who deserted Jesus when he was put on the Cross, and needed their support most.
They were hardly faithful to Jesus or belived in Jesus. Later, they eulogized Jesus and made him god, and their own thoughts as inspired by the Holy Ghost just to camoflouge their inner motives.
Had they belived Jesus as god; they would have happily remained with Jesus; at the most what would have happened to them; they would have been killed by the Jews or the Romans; and Jesus after resurrection only after hardly three days or less than that as per Bible, would have made them alive also from the dead.
But they never trutsted him as they knew he was no god; and could not make them alive from the dead.
One could see the game of the cunning Paul and the sinful scribes; if one just ponders over their superfluous witnessing.
As you requested and I allowed you to pray for me; so I think it is not good for you now to become angry for nothing.
Dialogue is always good for everybody; and exchange of views useful for peace. Why you become disappointed; have faith in Jesus and Mary and remain steadfast like them; they never were gods, alright, but they were steadfast with their Lord- God Allah YHWH.
You are supposed to love me; one who loves makes the contacts strong; so remain in contact with me, and I will also remain in contact with you, stroger than before.
You are a good friend; maybe sometimes your heart and mind gets opened for me, and you realize that you have not studied the Bible intently; neither its text nor its true context.
So it is for mutual benefit to keep a closer contact between us. You lose nothing; yet you may gain something.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned truthfully and rationally in Quran.
Paarsurrey, do you believe that if we repent of our sins and forsake them God will forgive us?
Paarsurrey says:
Yes; if we sin, we repent, forsake the sins and ask forgiveness from God Allah YHWH; He could in His discretion forgive us the sins. God Allah YHWH is Master of Everything, he has created everything; and he has not to take permission from anybody to forgive the sins.
God Allah YHWH is the Judge; if he forgives a wrong doing human being under the above procedure very mercifully and for the sake of humanity, I don’t find any injustice in it. It is the question of love and mercy of Him towards the human being; there is no discrepancy in it.
This is very rational, practical and very logical; we all experience it in our family. We forgive mistakes and sins of our daughters and sons; and nobody challenges it or says that it is unfair. In fact everybody understands that it is quite natural.
This has been going on from ages to ages; from the time of Adam to the time when Jesus was delivered from the Cross in near-dead position and when he got cured of the injuries infliceted on the Cross; he secretly migrated to India.
Now comes the cunning Paul- an enemy of Jesus; with a new idea never believed by Jesus and Mary, and the sinful scribes of the Gospels tow his line.The give a new meaning of Jesus tribulations on the Cross; in the absence of Jesus while he was in India.
Paul’s idea is neither truthful, nor practical, or rational or logical or natural. It is a cruel idea; to kill your son for the sins of your wife or for the sins of your daughter or for the sins of a stranger- a man in the street. It is a mockery of Justice. In fact it is a sin to beleive in it or to act on it.
Sorry, I don’t agree with Paul; I won’t buy his weird philosphy.
I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully described in Quran.
Paarsurrey, I am on the side that Cindy represents and I concur with her total position.
Paarsurrey says:
Hi friend wellwateredgarden
I think you are an open mind; you should not take sides for nothing. We are not here for a contentious debate to win; we are only discussing things, searching and researching for the truth and comparing our notes with one another.
You may take side with Cindy, no harm; if she is on the right with a bright argument; if she does not have a bright argument, you should not take side of her. I think even Cindy won’t like it; more than that even Jesus won’t like it.
If Cindy cannot, or does not give very bright arguments; and you have got it, your silence in the matter or remaining aside is not appropriate.
Cindy! Please don’t mind it; it is only in supposition.
Now my friend wellwateredgarden, you have a free will and an independent individual; you should be able to defend your faith/religion with good rational and reasonable arguments, if it is truthful; if it is false, then let it die its natural death.
Jesus was a man of wisdom and a straigtforward man; he not only presented good, rational and reasonable arguments; in addition to that he talked in parables, might be that interested the audience more at that point of time; yet he would present his case with full wisdom.
Jesus never wavered against the falsehood and the false people. Jesus was a good role model of his time; a sincere and forthright person.
It was only the cunning Paul, and the sinful scribes; who were foggy persons. They had little sincerity of Jesus; and perhaps they had no inclination to learn from Jesus; I think they thought that with their clever maneuverings they could hide the truth; but they were weak in wisdom and rational and reasonable arguments and they presented none; now they are exposed.
They tried to hide behind a complicated, mysterious and fake Theological Philosophy invented by Paul based on the creed that “Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross”.
I think this is only a web of the spiders they made or a house they erected with sand; crashing to the ground with a little jolt.
Please keep on making us rich with your straightforward and reasonable arguments like Jesus and siding with only the truth.
You are welcome here to express yourself fully; lest Cindy feels week and is discouraged. You both are my good friends, please don’t mind.
I love Jesus and Moses as I love Buddha and Krishna.
These events happened in the fourteenth century after the death of Moses; and, Jesus was the Restorer of the Israelite law in the fourteenth century.
Though the Jews were looking out in this fourteenth century for the Promised Messiah, and the prophecies of the previous prophets also pointed to this very time for his appearance, yet, alas! the unworthy priests of the Jews did not recognize the time and the season, and rejected the Promised Messiah as an impostor.
Brooksrobinson says:
14th century?! Are you serious?! 14th century BC or AD?! Wowzers my friend, no historian on the face of the earth would agree to those dates.
Paarsurrey says:
The Promised Messiah mentioned of fourteenth century according to lunar years from Moses. Muslims also use lunar years for spiritual matters. I think I should mention more from him to elaborate the point.
These events happened in the fourteenth century after the death of Moses; and, Jesus was the Restorer of the Israelite law in the fourteenth century.
Though the Jews were looking out in this fourteenth century for the Promised Messiah, and the prophecies of the previous prophets also pointed to this very time for his appearance, yet, alas! the unworthy priests of the Jews did not recognize the time and the season, and rejected the Promised Messiah as an impostor.
Not only this; they declared him a Kafir*, called him an unbeliever, pronounced the decree of death against him, and dragged him into court.
This showed that God had assembled in the fourteenth century the influences which made the people’s hearts callous, the priests worldly, blind, and enemies of truth.
Yet, a comparison between the fourteenth century after Moses and the fourteenth after the ‘like’ of Moses — our Holy Prophet (may peace and the blessings of God be upon him) — will show, first that in each of these centuries there was a man who claimed to be the promised Messiah; a true claim resting on the authority of God.
Then, it would also appear that the priests of the people declared both of them Kafirs, and called them unbelievers and Dajjals**, and pronounced Fatwas*~ of death against them, and dragged them into court — a Roman court in one case and a British in the other.
Ultimately, both were rescued; and the priests — the Jews and the Muslims — were foiled in their designs.
God had intended to raise great communities for both the Messiahs, and to defeat the designs of their enemies, In short, the fourteenth century after Moses and the fourteenth century after our Holy Prophet (peace and the blessings of God be upon him) are for their respective Messiahs trying, as well as — in the long run — blessed.
paarsurrey 