Paul and Joseph Smith were not truthful Messengers Propohets of God Allah YHWH; they met the same fate; God so arranged that they were killed

Markparker1 says:

Christ stated to the Prophet Joseph Smith

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend markparker1

I want to make it very clear here that we Ahmadi Muslims don’t believe that Jesus said or could say anything to Joseph Smith. Jesus died a natural and peaceful death in India after when he migrated there when he was saved a cursed death on Cross.

Jesus did not have any authority to appoint anyone as his messenger for receiving Word of God on his behalf. God Allah YHWH Himself appoints His messengers Prophets. Joseph Smith as far as I know was never appointed a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH. Jesus had no authority in this connection.

We understand that perhaps Joseph Smith’s case is that of Paul; who self appointed himself as apostel or epistle or messenger in the absence of Jesus. Paul never claimed to be a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; he invented a new cunning terminology.

Since both Paul and Joseph Smith, in my opinion, did confuse the people and were self-appointed Messenger Prophets; they met the same destiny, put to death, as per Torah:

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”

Sorry; we Muslims do not consider Paul and Joseph Smith truthful Messengers Propohets of God; they met the same fate; God so arranged.

I however respect your faith; you have the right to believe anything you are convinced with to be truthful.
Please take it as a statement of my faith; these are not meant as hate words.

I have not doubt in this connection.

I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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8 Responses to “Paul and Joseph Smith were not truthful Messengers Propohets of God Allah YHWH; they met the same fate; God so arranged that they were killed”

  1. markparker1 Says:

    Hi Paarsurrey, I don’t see how a Prophet being murdered makes him not a prophet, the Prophets sent to Israel were sadly often rejected and killed especially at Jerusalem, and that same thing is prophesyed to happen there in the near future. It doesn’t mean that God does not love and honour them.
    It is in the wisdom of God that he allows his witnesses to suffer death, that he may raise them triumphant, that they can die no more, and they have a place with him.

    For his own reasons God may have sent an angel to Prophets chosen of two nations that both nations could be blessed.

    This is a magazine article; I found it very interesting to read what modern Christian Apostles and Prophets, (early 19th Century to now) had to say about Muhammad:

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=bbaba1615ac0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

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    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend markparker1

      I would humbly submit the following points again:

      1. The Messengers Prophets are always appointed by God Allah YHWH; a sole discretion of Him; Jesus though one of the truthful Messengers Prophets of God like unto Jonah, yet he or anybody else could not and cannot appoint anyone as a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH on behalf of God Allah YHWH. This appointement simply does not fall under the discretion of Jesus. I understand that the cunning Paul and Joseph Smith claimed they were Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of Jesus; so strictly speaking they never legitimately claimed to be Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of God Allah YHWH in the first place.

      2. Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross; he survived against all odds. Jesus migrated to India, after getting cured from the injuries inflicted on the Cross; he is said to have died at the age of 120/125 years, a very natural and respectful death there. Paul claimed in the absence of Jesus when he was in India; so Paul’s claim was not truthful and hence he suffered the destiny as described in Deuteronomy very clearly.

      3. Jesus was appointed by God Allah YHWH as Messenger Prophet, hence, he survived a cursed death on Cross; that proves that he was a truthful Messenger Prophets of God Allah YHWH. Joseph Smith was ignorant of all these things; so I think he did not legitimately claimed to be a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; further he suffered the same fate; he was killed as clearly defined in Deuteronomy. He was ignorant about what happened to Jesus and Paul. Sorry; I cannot accept him as a legitimate claimant.

      4. I do not intend to start any bashing of Paul or Joseph Smith; they did whatever they liked to do and I don’t hate them; yet I have to believe things in a straighforward manner; so this is what I bleive very sincerely; a statement of faith of me. Please don’t mind.

      You are a nice friend.

      I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully and truthfully described in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      Like

  2. Randall Says:

    Just to put it out there, Joseph Smith was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ, and as far as I know, God the Father and Allah are the same being.

    Like

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Welcome to visit paarsurrey – a blog for interfaith peaceful discussions.

      I would like you to first read my following latest post on Paul and Joseph Smith:

      Paul and Joseph Smith claimed they were Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of Jesus; so strictly speaking they never legitimately claimed to be Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of God Allah YHWH

      I would humbly submit the following points in this connection:

      1. The Messengers Prophets are always appointed by God Allah YHWH; a sole discretion of Him; Jesus though one of the truthful Messengers Prophets of God like unto Jonah, yet he or anybody else could not and cannot appoint anyone as a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH on behalf of God Allah YHWH. This appointement simply does not fall under the discretion of Jesus. I understand that the cunning Paul and Joseph Smith claimed they were Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of Jesus; so strictly speaking they never legitimately claimed to be Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of God Allah YHWH in the first place.

      2. Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross; he survived against all odds. Jesus migrated to India, after getting cured from the injuries inflicted on the Cross; he is said to have died at the age of 120/125 years, a very natural and respectful death there. Paul claimed in the absence of Jesus when he was in India; so Paul’s claim was not truthful and hence he suffered the destiny as described in Deuteronomy very clearly.

      3. Jesus was appointed by God Allah YHWH as Messenger Prophet, hence, he survived a cursed death on Cross; that proves that he was a truthful Messenger Prophets of God Allah YHWH. Joseph Smith was ignorant of all these things; so I think he did not legitimately claimed to be a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; further he suffered the same fate; he was killed as clearly defined in Deuteronomy. He was ignorant about what happened to Jesus and Paul. Sorry; I cannot accept him as a legitimate claimant.

      4. I do not intend to start any bashing of Paul or Joseph Smith; they did whatever they liked to do and I don’t hate them; yet I have to believe things in a straighforward manner; so this is what I bleive very sincerely; a statement of faith of me. Please don’t mind.

      Randal my friend!Please keep on visiting and favoring with your valuable comments. Please feel free to express yourself fully here.

      I admire the Mormons Christians for their charitable and polite discussions.

      You are a nice friend.

      I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully and truthfully described in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      Like

  3. markparker1 Says:

    This is some of what Joseph Smith testified of his first vision:

    14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
    15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
    16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
    17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

    This is what Joseph claimed he experienced, if one looks at the life he led and the work he did it’s very difficult to believe this was not real to him.
    If Joseph prays to ask God an important question, and in answer God himself, in whose image man was created, appears to him and asks him to hear the words of his beloved son whom he introduces, how can Joseph do anything but tell the truth about what happened, even if it offends Christian sects that believe in a Trinity, and perhaps perplexes you Paar
    because it doesn’t fit with your understanding of Christianity and how that sits with Islam.

    Joseph gives this account of a second vision, or visitation:

    30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
    31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
    32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.
    33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

    Could Joseph be anymore called by God? Could a prophet make a clearer claim? What would you think Paar if that was your experience? The angel even prophesys about Joseph’s name; even though Joseph would do nothing other than tell the truth he would be a figure of great controvecy. When this took place Joseph was an obscure farm boy, with neither education nor wealth, yet now by doing an internet search on ‘Joseph Smith’ you will see the words of the angel fullfilled and see people speak of him, either as a good man and a true Prophet or as an evil man and deciever. Did you read the link?

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    • paarsurrey Says:

      Paarsurrey says:

      Hi friend markparker1

      I gather following points from you post:

      1. Joseph Smith – my determination to ask of God …immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speakof this enemy which had seized upon me,…
      2. A pillar of lightI saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air.
      3. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
      4. How can Joseph do anything but tell the truth about what happened, even if it offends Christian sects that believe in a Trinity, and perhaps perplexes you Paar,because it doesn’t fit with your understanding of Christianity and how that sits with Islam.
      5. But the fear soon left me.
      6. 33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do.
      7. Did you read the link?

      Frankly speaking; I did not read the link as I did not find like reading it as yet.

      Presently, I would remain focussed on what you write to me. I am not offended; why should I?

      I have noted some points from your post, the same have been jotted down by me above. I think I sent you another post and also published it here in this blog. Please read it.

      I don’t find in the first or in the second vision as narrated by you that God Allah YHWH talked to Joseph Smith.

      It might be your guess or his guess that God Allah YHWH talked to him. Is it specifically mentioned by him? I could not see it there in the text.

      So; Joseph Smith is not appointed by God Allah YHWH as Messenger Prophet of Him.

      One more little question; did Joseph Smith believe that Jesus was God?

      Any Mormon or any other viewer could join in the discussion, please.

      I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully and rationally described in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      Like

  4. markparker1 Says:

    Thanks for your reply, I think it is important to read the link, it’s not something that is to try to convince you of one thing or another it just has reference to Prophets and apostles of the Mormon Church; their historical attitude toward Muhammad and Islam. I have shown it to a couple of other Muslim friends on the internet who found it very interesting.
    It’s quite plain (to a Christian)in Josephs first vision that it is God the Father who first answers him, then bears witness of his son Jesus Christ and directs Joseph to hear his words. To a Christian this is seen as consistent with the New Testament where on a number of occasions God the Father spoke to men on the earth and bore witness of Christ.

    “One more little question; did Joseph Smith believe that Jesus was God?”

    Ah, this little question is a really big question.
    Firstly we do not believe in the Trinity as adopted by Christian sects around the 4th century after Christ.
    We believe as Paul stated:
    1 Corinthians:8;
    4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
    5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    To understand more fully our belief on Christ and his place, you would need to understand what the inheritance represents and the nature of Eternal life and what the Christian scriptures say about creation and the place Christ fills in the Father’s plan of salvation.
    What is plainly stated by Christ in the New Testament is that ‘the Father is greater than I”
    “That the Father is my God and your God” We are also asked to pray to the Father in the name of Christ, not to anyone else.
    I do read all your replies, it’s just a bit hard to keep track of the different parts to our conversations. Did you watch the video of the Mediator, the relationship of justice to mercy? It probably needs a fast internet connection, we have that here now in this part of Australia but before videos took too long to load, if you have a high speed internet connection maybe if you didn’t watch it before you could, and maybe get a better idea of that relationship between justice and mercy as we understand it, because it can give an understanding of why God had a plan by which his son should be a sacrifice for sin. This concept is imbeded into the Bible Old and New Testament from the passover lamb, to Abraham being commanded to take his son to offer him as a sacrifice for sin, things that taught of and forshadowed God’s giving his son.

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    • paarsurrey Says:

      Markparker1 says:

      “One more little question; did Joseph Smith believe that Jesus was God?”

      Ah, this little question is a really big question.

      Firstly we do not believe in the Trinity as adopted by Christian sects around the 4th century after Christ.

      Paarsurrey says:

      Well, Jesus was an upright person; he neither believed in Trinity nor in Duality. Jesus’ belief was as simple as of Moses, Abraham, Noah and Jonah; as they were with the same Message from God Allah YHWH.

      It becomes clealr to me that Joseph Smith was neither visited by God Allah YHWH nor by Jesus. The conclusion drwan by the Mormons are neither depicted in the text of the first vision of Joseph Smith, nor are in confirmity with the context of the beliefs of Moses, Abraham, Noah, Jonah and Jesus and other Prophest of the Old Testament.

      Paul and Joseph Smith seem to be the same complicated persons; had got nothing to do with Jesus or God Allah YHWH; hence their destiny was similar; they were killed in terms of Deuteronmy; as they were never legitimately appointed by by God Allah YHWH in the first place.

      I don’t mind if somebody wants to covert me to his faith; this is his right, which he should establish rightly.

      One of our friends, Maaark, who is also an ex-LDS person has aloso commented in this connection, you may if you like reply his understandings in the matter.

      I love Jesus and Mary as depicted in Quran; not the ones described by Paul or Joseph Smith.

      Please don’t mind; you are a friend. I don’t have anything against you or the Mormon Christians, we are just discussing the things in search of truth and comparing our notes. I respect your faith and you have a right to defend your faith; which please continue doing boldly. There is no intention to malign the Mormon Christians, a good people.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      Like

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