Posts Tagged ‘Deuteronomy’

Did G-d have direct conversation with the Jewry?

May 26, 2015

Please view and comment on my post at <www.religiousforums.com >  <Thread : Judaism>. One may like to join the discussion by clicking on the post # below.

Post #155

Friend Tumah quoted Deuteronomy – Chapter 4:12 to prove that G-d spoke directly to the Israelite nation as a whole.

Deuteronomy does not supersede the points given in Exodus. Deuteronomy cannot change the event as narrated in Exodus, as the event was just happening at that time. Deuteronomy was exhortation addresses of what had already happened.

The points mentioned by me about Exodus Chapters 19, 20 in my post # 21 <Judaism: no mass revelation of G-d with Jews mentioned in Exodus Chapter 19 and 20 | Page 2 | ReligiousForums.com>, therefore, remain still valid.

The text of the chapters 19,20 of Exodus indicates that:
• neither the people went up the mountain (only Moses and Aaron went as per the text) none other went,
• nor YHWH descended to the masses to talk with them directly,
• the masses were afraid of the YHWH lest He wreaks at them. (What chosen people they , the Jews, claim to be?)
• there was a barricade for the Jews, they could no cross it.
• The conversation was between YHWH and Moses in direct manner up at the mountain.
• It is therefore evident that the communication was indirectly conveyed to masses by Moses.

That proves my point.

Moses wanted to save the Jewish people from the iniquities they could perform in future. The Jews disobeyed Moses and as a people acted against the commandments given to them through Moses by God as mentioned in Deuteronomy.
Instead of being a select people, the Jews became the worst people.

This chapter four of Deuteronomy served as a future charge-sheet given to the Jews by Moses himself.

Regards

Moses, Isaiah and Jeremiah confirm that scribes corrupted Torah

June 15, 2014

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3807472-post1124.html

CMike wrote in post #1105 about Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9, 24, 26-29

Quote:
There are no mistakes in the Torah.

Paarsurrey wrote:

And the verses Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9, 24, 26-29 are:

9. Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
26. “Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.
27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, and I will speak these words into their ears, and I will call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses against them.
29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

That confirmed as per Moses and Torah, ark of covenant and heaven and earth stood as witness that Jews were rebellious and stubborn people and would remain as such:

1. For I (Moses) know your (the Jews) rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
2. Jews “will surely become corrupted”
3. Jews will “deviate from the way which I had commanded you”
4. Jews will “provoke Him (G-d) to anger through the work of your (their) hands.

It is a prophesy of Moses that the narrator and scribes of Torah would get corrupted and would corrupt the scriptures; later Isaiah (vide Chapter 24:1-6) and Jeremiah (vide Chapter 8:8-9) only confirmed fulfillment of what Moses had prophesied.

Jews should not doubt it; if they doubt they only show that they are stubborn and rebel against G-d and have deviated from the way commanded by Moses and they provoke anger of G-d.

Regards

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Isaiah – Chapter 24:1-6

1. Behold the Lord empties the land and lays it waste, and He shall turn over its face and scatter its inhabitants. א. הִנֵּה יְהֹוָה בּוֹקֵק הָאָרֶץ וּבוֹלְקָהּ וְעִוָּה פָנֶיהָ וְהֵפִיץ יֹשְׁבֶיהָ:
2. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest, as with the slave, so with his master, as with the maidservant, so with her mistress, as with the buyer, so with the seller, as with the lender, so with the borrower, as with the creditor, so with the one who owes him. ב. וְהָיָה כָעָם כַּכֹּהֵן כַּעֶבֶד כַּאדֹנָיו כַּשִּׁפְחָה כַּגְּבִרְתָּהּ כַּקּוֹנֶה כַּמּוֹכֵר כַּמַּלְוֶה כַּלּוֶֹה כַּנֹּשֶׁה כַּאֲשֶׁר נֹשֶׁא בוֹ:
3. The land shall be emptied and it shall be pillaged, for the Lord has spoken this thing. ג. הִבּוֹק | תִּבּוֹק הָאָרֶץ וְהִבּוֹז | תִּבּוֹז כִּי יְהֹוָה דִּבֶּר אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה:
4. The land has mourned, it has withered, the land has been humbled and withered, the highest of the people of the land have been humbled. ד. אָבְלָה נָבְלָה הָאָרֶץ אֻמְלְלָה נָבְלָה תֵּבֵל אֻמְלָלוּ מְרוֹם עַם הָאָרֶץ:
5. And the land has deceived because of its inhabitants, for they transgressed instructions, infracted statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. ה. וְהָאָרֶץ חָנְפָה תַּחַת יֹשְׁבֶיהָ כִּי עָבְרוּ תוֹרֹת חָלְפוּ חֹק הֵפֵרוּ בְּרִית עוֹלָם:
6. Therefore, an oath has consumed the land, and the inhabitants thereof were wasted; therefore, the inhabitants of the land were dried up, and few people remained.

Yeshayahu – Chapter 24 – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15955/jewish/Chapter-24.htm

Jeremiah – Chapter 8:8-9
8. How do you say, “We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us”? Verily, behold it is in vain, he made a false scribes’ pen.
9. Wise men were ashamed, they were broken and caught; behold they rejected the word of the Lord, now what wisdom have they?

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16005

‘My God, My Gods… why have you abandoned me?’: Jesus

June 12, 2014

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3803839-post370.html

“Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbadger
‘My God, My Gods… why have you abandoned me?’ and then got it written up into the Gospels!” Unquote

Paarsurrey wrote:

As against the Christian who following Paul and try to make Jesus a literal or physical god or son of god; this clearly shows that being a Jew, unlike the Christians, Jesus never believed in trinity and firmly followed Moses:

Quote:
Deuteronomy – Chapter 6:4-9

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

Deuteronomy – Chapter 6 (Parshah Va’etchanan) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9970

It shows that Jesus was unlike Christians who follow Pauline creeds which is totally different from the prime teachings Jesus and Mary believed in.

Regards

Where is the scroll that Moses gave to Levites?

June 10, 2014

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3800738-post1067.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMike

“That’s why G-D gave the oral law as well on Mt. Sinai.” Unquote

Paarsurrey wrote:

Where is the scroll that Moses gave to Levites?

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31:9,24,26-29

9. Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
26. “Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.
27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, and I will speak these words into their ears, and I will call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses against them.
29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deuteronomy – Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) – Tanakh Online – Torah – Bible

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9995

Regards

False Prophets are always killed in terms of Torah

January 31, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4657&p=93401#p93401

manfred wrote:

But the prophet, who being corrupted with pride, shall speak in my name things that I did not command him to say, or in the name of strange gods, shall be slain. Deuteronomy 18:20

This verse of the Torah tells us that false prophets should be killed. It is an instruction, not an explanation on how to recognize false prophets.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

It is not an optional thing; it is a commandment that must be followed.Please read Deuteronomy again; it is a must .
The false Prophets have always been killed, otherwise the verse becomes meaningless. It is for this that we maintain that Jesus was not killed on the Cross; the Creator-God Allah YHWH planned things in such a way that Jesus survived against all odds; and finally he made good his escape to India.

Or

Please quote the verses from the Torah and the reason from Torah verses where explanation has been provided to recognize false prophets from the truthful ones; you won’t find any, in my opinion, except the one I have already mentioned that false Prophets are killed.

Catholics Protestants to take it seriously; no derision or ridiculing like the un-natural Atheists Agnostics, please.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

The Messengers Prophets are always appointed by God Allah YHWH; a sole discretion of Him; not of Jesus

June 5, 2009

Randall says:

Just to put it out there, Joseph Smith was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ, and as far as I know, God the Father and Allah are the same being.

Paarsurrey says:

Welcome to visit paarsurrey – a blog for interfaith peaceful discussions.

I would like you to first read my following latest post on Paul and Joseph Smith:

Paul and Joseph Smith claimed they were Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of Jesus; so strictly speaking they never legitimately claimed to be Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of God Allah YHWH

I would humbly submit the following points in this connection:

1. The Messengers Prophets are always appointed by God Allah YHWH; a sole discretion of Him; Jesus though one of the truthful Messengers Prophets of God like unto Jonah, yet he or anybody else could not and cannot appoint anyone as a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH on behalf of God Allah YHWH. This appointement simply does not fall under the discretion of Jesus. I understand that the cunning Paul and Joseph Smith claimed they were Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of Jesus; so strictly speaking they never legitimately claimed to be Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of God Allah YHWH in the first place.

2. Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross; he survived against all odds. Jesus migrated to India, after getting cured from the injuries inflicted on the Cross; he is said to have died at the age of 120/125 years, a very natural and respectful death there. Paul claimed in the absence of Jesus when he was in India; so Paul’s claim was not truthful and hence he suffered the destiny as described in Deuteronomy very clearly.

3. Jesus was appointed by God Allah YHWH as Messenger Prophet, hence, he survived a cursed death on Cross; that proves that he was a truthful Messenger Prophets of God Allah YHWH. Joseph Smith was ignorant of all these things; so I think he did not legitimately claimed to be a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; further he suffered the same fate; he was killed as clearly defined in Deuteronomy. He was ignorant about what happened to Jesus and Paul. Sorry; I cannot accept him as a legitimate claimant.

4. I do not intend to start any bashing of Paul or Joseph Smith; they did whatever they liked to do and I don’t hate them; yet I have to believe things in a straighforward manner; so this is what I bleive very sincerely; a statement of faith of me. Please don’t mind.

Randal my friend!Please keep on visiting and favoring with your valuable comments. Please feel free to express yourself fully here.

I admire the Mormons Christians for their charitable and polite discussions.

You are a nice friend.

I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully and truthfully described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Paul and Joseph Smith claimed they were Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of Jesus; so strictly speaking they never legitimately claimed to be Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of God Allah YHWH

June 4, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend markparker1

I would humbly submit the following points again:

1. The Messengers Prophets are always appointed by God Allah YHWH; a sole discretion of Him; Jesus though one of the truthful Messengers Prophets of God like unto Jonah, yet he or anybody else could not and cannot appoint anyone as a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH on behalf of God Allah YHWH. This appointement simply does not fall under the discretion of Jesus. I understand that the cunning Paul and Joseph Smith claimed they were Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of Jesus; so strictly speaking they never legitimately claimed to be Messengers/Prophets/Epistles/Apostels of God Allah YHWH in the first place.

2. Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross; he survived against all odds. Jesus migrated to India, after getting cured from the injuries inflicted on the Cross; he is said to have died at the age of 120/125 years, a very natural and respectful death there. Paul claimed in the absence of Jesus when he was in India; so Paul’s claim was not truthful and hence he suffered the destiny as described in Deuteronomy very clearly.

3. Jesus was appointed by God Allah YHWH as Messenger Prophet, hence, he survived a cursed death on Cross; that proves that he was a truthful Messenger Prophets of God Allah YHWH. Joseph Smith was ignorant of all these things; so I think he did not legitimately claimed to be a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; further he suffered the same fate; he was killed as clearly defined in Deuteronomy. He was ignorant about what happened to Jesus and Paul. Sorry; I cannot accept him as a legitimate claimant.

4. I do not intend to start any bashing of Paul or Joseph Smith; they did whatever they liked to do and I don’t hate them; yet I have to believe things in a straighforward manner; so this is what I bleive very sincerely; a statement of faith of me. Please don’t mind.

You are a nice friend.

I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully and truthfully described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Note:

The above is my response to comments of Markparker1 , which could be accessed and read at:

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/paul-and-joseph-smith-were-not-truthful-messengers-propohets-of-god-allah-yhwh-they-met-the-same-fate-god-so-arranged-that-they-were-killed/#comments

Paul and Joseph Smith were not truthful Messengers Propohets of God Allah YHWH; they met the same fate; God so arranged that they were killed

June 4, 2009

Markparker1 says:

Christ stated to the Prophet Joseph Smith

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend markparker1

I want to make it very clear here that we Ahmadi Muslims don’t believe that Jesus said or could say anything to Joseph Smith. Jesus died a natural and peaceful death in India after when he migrated there when he was saved a cursed death on Cross.

Jesus did not have any authority to appoint anyone as his messenger for receiving Word of God on his behalf. God Allah YHWH Himself appoints His messengers Prophets. Joseph Smith as far as I know was never appointed a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH. Jesus had no authority in this connection.

We understand that perhaps Joseph Smith’s case is that of Paul; who self appointed himself as apostel or epistle or messenger in the absence of Jesus. Paul never claimed to be a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; he invented a new cunning terminology.

Since both Paul and Joseph Smith, in my opinion, did confuse the people and were self-appointed Messenger Prophets; they met the same destiny, put to death, as per Torah:

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”

Sorry; we Muslims do not consider Paul and Joseph Smith truthful Messengers Propohets of God; they met the same fate; God so arranged.

I however respect your faith; you have the right to believe anything you are convinced with to be truthful.
Please take it as a statement of my faith; these are not meant as hate words.

I have not doubt in this connection.

I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus was only a Messenger of God: and there is no Trinity

February 28, 2009

angelpurplewings Says:
February 27, 2009

Hi paarsurrey,
Notice what you quoted from Daniel 9:26:
26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his.
The Christ is Jesus. Christ means Messiah, or anointed one.
You said:
“If Jesus was a truthful Messenger of God Allah YHWH, he must not have been killed on the Cross in terms of Deuteronomy; only the false Messengers were to be killed by the Jews as commanded there.”
So we have 2 verses
One says the Christ will be killed/slain
The other verse mentions that false prophets were to be killed.
Jesus was true and innocent. But he died just like other prophets who were true before him.

Paarsurrey replies:

I think in a way you agree with me that Jesus was a truthful person and one of the innocents; that is the more reason that Jesus did not and could not be killed on the Cross, he survived and migrated to India where he died peacefully and naturally among his own Jewish people settled there being Lost Sheep or Lost Ten Tribes of Israel.

The CatholicsProtestants etc consider Jesus one of the most perfect men or Messengers; though wrongly in my opinion, yet they believe that he was Catholics’Protestants’s-god-Jesus, so they should not quote example of an ordinary truthful person like Stephen etc or a person of lesser status than Jesus.

The more they exaggerate/eulogize the status of Jesus, the more the commandment of Deuteronomy of killing the false messengers, become applicable to Jesus and necessitated in the eyes of the Torah and the Jews in case of Jesus. It becomes case sensitive and specific to Jesus.
I don’t believe that Jesus died on the Cross; so I can claim and believe that Jesus was one of the truthful Messengers of God. I think Catholics Protestants etc have no moral ground to believe him as such; either they would have to believe that the indictment of Torah was wrong; and, mind it, logically that would entail that Moses was not a truthful Messenger. Or that Jesus was not a truthful Messenger.

One can have, under the situation only one of the two options, sorry my friend, not both morally as well as logically.

Further, our CatholicsProtestants etc friends should consider another dimension of the matter; they consider Jesus as a god, in that capacity Christian-god-Jesus must have existed even before the genesis.

1. Was it a mistake of Christian-god-Jesus to reveal Deuteronomy on Moses, with the punishment of false Messengers? Or was it the mistake of Christian-god-Father or the Christian-god-holyghost or of the all combined in Trinity.

2. Once they have revealed to Moses; were the three persons of Trinity, individually and collectively weak and inconsistent to save Jesus once they have revealed the punishment for false prophets?
3. If Jesus was to be killed for the excessive sins of the Christians which could not forgiven without the sacrifice of Jesus; why should have the Trinity not known it to begin with?
I think the easier, moral and logical position is that Jesus did not die on the Cross and he was only a Messenger of God and there is no Trinity.

Please don’t mind, I respect your religion, we are just discussing things in search of truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim