Courtesy: richarddawkins discussion forum; I give hereunder a good post on the above topic.
Postby oombuddah » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:26 pm
It makes sense because Jesus was only put on for a few hours! Even Josephus’ best mate survived the cross after days and days.
To worry your position even more, there is a scholarly work which shows that people would die between 3-7 days on hanging on the cross.
There is an evolution of the descriptions of torture, it looks like the latests gospels try to intensify the others.
Jesus was fed antiseptic.
Jesus was annointed with healing herbs.
No one knows the cause of his death – not even the doctors, but it is obvious that there is no cause of his death because if you look at it from a scientific viewpoint, it is in fact very unlikely that he did die in the first place.
Sure, they all agree he died but on what basis? They are looking at the evangelized accounts of his “scourging”.
Jesus was put into a roomy tomb where he can breathe.
Gosp. of John SPEAR THRUST – Raymond Brown said it was an insertion to prove docetists wrong. Biblical scholars agree that this spear thrust is extremely unlikely and UNHISTORICAL.
Jesus cried to be saved from death. God heard him.
They were professional executioners, but they aren’t always right – they are not scientists like today, try going to the point of drowning, you are unconscious for so long – it’s quite a similar phenomenon in a few ways. You are assumed dead.
Remember what happened to Paul? So many people thought he was dead, not just 2 or 3. But he got up and walked away.
It is so clear that if you analyse the science, Jesus did not die on the cross.
Pliny the Elder even had a big ass moan in his works saying that it is hard to determine when someone is actually dead or not!
Doctors who have said that Jesus died on the cross had took every single account in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John literally – Just remember that.
You would be assuming that Jesus had died on the cross. Its nothing more than an assumption. Christians know that.
They base their salvation on something which is assumed to be a miracle. They are doing half the miracle by assuming it’s a miracle.
We all know, there’s no point of me even reiterating this but hey, antiseptics have such an effect, that it can cause one to swoon.
As for guards at the tomb:
how do we know they were there? No one was there to witness the guards at the tomb – Dr. William Lane Craig and other top Christian scholars agree that the guards at the tomb are “Probably Not Historical” and could have come about from shouting matches in the form of oral traditions (to try and disprove the idea that Jesus got up and walked away with his normal body) which were then put in the gospels.
Raymond Brown, one of the top Christian scholar of our present time believes that Jesus appeared once to the disciples in which he said NOTHING. Then vanished.
There’s two ways of approaching this issue naturalistically:
1. Jesus appeared to the disciples in his human form, he disguised himself so he doesn’t get caught by the Jews, the disciples doubted it was Jesus whom they saw – the gospels attest to this idea (to back my point up).
2. Visions of Jesus – either naturalistic visions or visions granted by God – which is supported in Islamic tradition.
The thing about visionary appearances is that visions can be seen, felt and spoken too, even hugged. They can be viewed by masses of people. For example, Virgin Mary. Dr. Bart Ehrman argues in a recent debate that the resurrection appearances are visions.
Type this in on Youtube:
Virgin Mary appears to +500,000 people in Egypt!!
So appearances to the 11 really doesn’t mean anything much when Mary appears to 000’s
Did she really appear? I don’t think so, but they are adamant that she did.
Doesn’t the visionary body seem exactly the same as a resurrected body to you? I should think so.
I would also like to ask you, don’t you think Pilate would want to spare Jesus? Don’t you think the Roman centurions would seriously want to spare Jesus?
So here you are, the resurrection is disputed and surprisingly can be explained away very credibly, naturalistically.
You would need to prove that he died in the first place which is a total assumption.
How can the disciples tell a resurrected body and a visionary body which can be seen, touched, spoken to and hugged? They haven’t seen anything of a ‘resurrected nature’ before, so even if they did give firm testimony of the type of resurrection that some Christians try to prove (bodily), is this firm testimony really accurate? Of course not , only by assumption is it accurate. To assume a miracle is to assume salvation.
Look at the description of Jesus’ beating, and compare that to the other gospels (by the way, top christian and non christian scholars agree that Mark is a source of Matthew and Luke, and that Matthew and Luke evangelize and also just add extra info on Mark). The description of the beatings in Luke and Matthew are far greater than the descriptions of the beatings in Mark.
Jesus’ legs were not broken – a method done to ensure a quick death AND to ensure that if people are put into a tomb, they don’t ESCAPE!
Pilate was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED and DOUBTED when he heard Jesus had died SO EARLY. The centurion went to check and looked at him – he didn’t know for sure obviously, but he said that he died.
(I am an Ex-Christian Convert to Islam, I have tried my best to minimize bias towards my particular belief – Jesus swooned). But it makes sense naturalistically right?
Dr. Richard Carrier believes that the resurrection appearances was based on an assumption from looking at Isaiah 53.
Even if Jesus was to remain alive, because they saw him, they would assume he resurrected from the dead anyway lol
Isaiah 53 Suffering servant = ISRAEL! NOT JESUS!