<www.religiousforums.com> Thread : A good heated discussion.
Archive for the ‘Bible’ Category
Originally Posted by Robert.Evans
That does not make it wrong though, even if that might sound incorrect. it is the finished product that counts, though I take your point
The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.
That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God.
NT Bible only depicted the mythical cruel God invented by Paul who preferred to kill his own son for the imaginary sins of the human beings.
So the OT and the NT have mixed up things. Some or a large number of them are definitely corruptions done and highlighted out of proportions by the sinful scribes for their own nefarious motives.
Originally Posted by CMike
Then obviously you have no clue regarding Jewish scriptures.Unquote
“The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.
That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God.”
Please quote from Torah that my above observation is totally wrong.
March 21st, 2014 at 7:40 pm
@john zande :March 21st, 2014 at 6:27 am
“Revelation 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”Unquote
I want to share an incident with friends here.
Quite sometimes ago two JWs persons came to my house and told me that there had been no change in the Bible, it is impossible and opened before me the above two passage of Revelation 22:18-19 from the Urdu Protestant Bible (later I came to know that JWs don’t had their own Urdu JW’s Bible at that time, and hence they preferred to follow Protestant Version and not the Catholic Version).
Incidentally I had a Catholic Urdu Bible with me which I was studying very intently, and I was much impressed by its contents.
I brought that and put that on the table. I said let us check both the versions, I did not know as to what the result would be. So we started checking the list of books given in the beginning.
We came to know that there were some six books in the Catholic Urdu OT Bible which were not to be found in the Protestant Bible.
They (the JWs) became pale and upset and went away.
So the addition or diminution of the books; and besides that many passage/verses and chapters missing or adding suggest, please don’t mind, that perhaps both the Protestants and Catholics have been cut off from the tree of life in terms of the above verses of Revelation 22:18-19.
What is the remedy?
Can both the mainstream Christian denominations agree to a version which should be acceptable to both of them and the JWs?
Please view Paarsurrey’s comments on the following blog for your valuable opinion:
“Dwindling In Unbelief”
“Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?”
paarsurrey Says: March 5, 2014 at 8:33 pm | Reply edit
@bobbierileyjr: March 4, 2014 at 12:39 am |
“Such methods stand in stark contrast to the teachings of Jesus to win men and women for the Kingdom of God by proclaiming the Good News of God’s saving grace through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.” Unquote
I think you did not notice perhaps; the blog to which I had given response is owned by the atheists by the name “Dwindling In Unbelief” and the topic is “Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?”; link below:
If you think that there is no violence in Bible; then be pleased to respond to them directly and prove to them. The Atheists assert that there are 1214 Cruel or Violent Passages in the Bible.
Please feel free to prove to them directly that there are no cruel or violent passages/verses in the Bible.
Thanks and regards.
I quote from Wikipedia.
“The Bible and archaeology
According to one of the world’s leading biblical archaeologists, William G. Dever,
“Archaeology certainly doesn’t prove literal readings of the Bible…It calls them into question, and that’s what bothers some people. Most people really think that archaeology is out there to prove the Bible. No archaeologist thinks so.” From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. William Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the “archeological revolution.” Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that’s very disturbing to some people.
Dever also wrote:
Archaeology as it is practiced today must be able to challenge, as well as confirm, the Bible stories. Some things described there really did happen, but others did not. The biblical narratives about Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Solomon probably reflect some historical memories of people and places, but the ‘larger than life’ portraits of the Bible are unrealistic and contradicted by the archaeological evidence…. I am not reading the Bible as Scripture… I am in fact not even a theist. My view all along—and especially in the recent books—is first that the biblical narratives are indeed ‘stories,’ often fictional and almost always propagandistic, but that here and there they contain some valid historical information…
This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.
Professor Finkelstein, who is known as “the father of biblical archaeology”, told the Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative on the Exodus, the Jews’ wandering in Sinai or Joshua’s conquest of Canaan. On the alleged Temple of Solomon, Finkelstein said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed. Professor Yoni Mizrahi, an independent archaeologist who has worked with the International Atomic Energy Agency, agreed with Israel Finkelstein.
“Really, it’s a myth,”… “This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.””
I have gone through the above; these observations of the Archaeologists are about the narratives of the Bible. Quran never supported the Jews about the authorship of Bible. We always maintained that Bible is not authored by the one true God or by Moses; it is written by sinful scribes who at time exaggerated things and at other times they were fictional and added things or removed them.
Quran does not mention the cities and places which were under study of the Archaeologists. Quran categorically mentions that Jews tampered with the Bible to the extent that new Word of Revelation was essential, hence the advent of truthful Muhammad.
This study rather adds to the faith of Muslims that Quran is authored by the one true God; and its narratives don’t belong to Bible.
I wrote following posts on <http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/> under the topic <God spoke “Behold I will stand there before thee, upon the rock Horeb”>; the posts are given below for the viewers of this blog.
(To see the context of a post, please, click the post #; that will take you to the full single view of the post in the forum, and then click the thread topic on the right upper corner, that will take you to the discussion that ensued in the forum.)
#1 Judaism are monotheists, as I understand, and the Christians also claim that they believe in one God, despite their belief in Trinity. Hinduism more so the Santana Dharma or the believers in the Eternal Law are also monotheists, as I understand; so are Zoroastrians and Buddha, as I get it.
How should we perceive Exodus 17:6?
 Behold I will stand there before thee, upon the rock Horeb: – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Book Of Exodus Chapter 17
God is not a physical being; what is meant by God standing upon the rock Horeb?
#5 I have now made some corrections; is it OK now? Please
#8To me; it is essential; all revealed religion are from one source of one true God; whatever the name in the language of the people it originated in. Like Levite has explained; others could also explain it and see their religion in the same light; that makes unity in understanding, in my opinion.
#9 Thanks for explaining for me.
How would you explain Moses parting the sea in two columns with his staff and making way for the Israelites?
#12 Thanks for your answer.
What is your stance on the following, please?
1. The water of the river became blood. EXODUS 7:17.
2. Moses smites all the borders of Egypt with frogs. EXODUS 8:2.
3. Moses smites the dust of the earth and became lice. EXODUS 8:17.
4. Moses sends a grievous mourner upon the cattle, the Egyptians cattle died but the Israelite did not. EXODUS 9:3. EXODUS 9:6 to 7.
5. Moses smites the Egyptians by the dust of the furnace. EXODUS 9:8.
6. Moses sends rain of hail. EXODUS 9:18.
7. Moses sends the locusts over Egypt. EXODUS 10:14.
8. Moses sends the darkness in all the land of Egypt for 3 days. EXODUS 10:22.
9. GOD said, every first born in the land of Egypt from Pharaoh to the first born of the maidservant, And all first born of the beast. EXODUS 12:29.
#16 Please elaborate the last sentence.
Originally Posted by Shermana
And how is the idea of His presence particularly dwelling in the Tabernacle and Temple understood? What is this “Thickening” exactly? Does it imply a greater material manifestation? Can it possibly imply being seen in an actual bodily form?
It is making God a physical being, in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Shermana
I think so too.
I believe the ancient understanding was in fact that God had a body and could manifest directly in Physical form, that the “likeness” man is made in was 100% literal physical likeness, and the language describing his being and body were in fact literal, and only much later on in Rabbinical thought did this change.
This “Thickening” that Levite speaks of I agree with to a certain point, that it’s about materializing in a physical form even though his being permeats the entire world through his spirit.
This “thickening” is through an angel; not all by Himself ;one true God has no spirit; all spirits are His creation; He is everywhere with his attributes not with body or spirit.
#24The one true God is attributive; He converses with the human beings through Word revealed, visions and dreams; it is narrators and the scribes mishandling the phenomenon. There is no “thickening” of the one true God, in my opinion.
#25 One could find truth behind the story tellers, erring narrators and the wrong doing scribes, in my opinion.
Hank Kimball says:
(While commenting on one of my posts <https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/i-have-studied-bible-both-ot-and-nt-from-cover-to-cover/#comment-2798>.)
“If the bible is the word of God, it is unrighteous and dishonest to use any other book to interpret it.”
It should be a very big “if”.
Bible is a mess; finding Word of God in it is akin to finding jewels in the rubble; though not impossible.
NT Bible is errant; written by errant scribes. It is neither authored by the one true Creator God whom Jesus used to call God-the-Father nor by Jesus himself. It is not even dictated by Jesus; not even written by men authorized in writing by Jesus to write it on his behalf.
Gospels are not work of inspiration either; angels cannot inspire such incorrect information as we find many contradictory accounts of Jesus’ life in the Bible.
It is wrong to say that it was written by person who got inspired by the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not inspire to errant and sinful persons. The contradictions show, if at all, it is the evil spirit in them which inspired them.
Gospels did not record event of crucifixion and resurrection by the eye-witnesses; it is written that they all deserted Jesus and fled away.
Jesus did not belong to the physical lineage of King David as written by errant Matthew and errant Luke.
Bible presents Jesus as god; on what basis?
If it is on the basis of Paul or Gospels; that makes it a circular argument and Christianity reduces to a misnomer; it should be named after Paul.
The reasons or arguments should be from elsewhere; from a book or Gospel written by Jesus himself or dictated by Jesus, if it is to be truly called Christianity.
Jesus never, ever, appointed any attorney to write for him. So what the sinful disciples wrote, it had got nothing to do with Jesus or his teachings.
When Paul doctored the anonymous writing called gospels and named them after Jesus’ disciples to give some credulity to them; Jesus was at that time very much alive and was travelling towards India and the neighbouring countries; unaware of the misdeeds of Paul and the scribes in his absence.
Since we believe in Jesus and love him and his mother; we are willing to accept, whatever God Allah YHWH revealed Word from his mouth on the heart of Jesus; provided Jesus had himself written it, Jesus had dictated it verbatim in the original language revealed in.
Even if no Word was revealed on Jesus which he should have preserved for the Christian friends; but Jesus himself said something and wrote it himself or dictated it himself or authenticated it or authorized somebody before the event of Crucifixion to write for him; though that would be only at a Secondary Level, yet for our Christian friends we could consider that.
Has any Christian got anything like that? If so it is welcome to an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.
Other Christians are also welcome to join this discussion in search and understanding of Truth.
I believe that Jesus was a truthful person and existed historically only because his and his mother Mary’s accounts have been mentioned in Quran. Except for the Muslims, you know that no other religion believes that Jesus and Mary even existed in this world; I think one should appreciate it.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Hank Kimball Says:
(While commenting on one of posts <https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/difference-between-ahmadi-muslims-and-other-muslims/#comment-2790>)
“The claims you listen to other people make about the bible, without having studied it yourself, doesn’t really make you appear as a seeker of truth. It makes you lazy and apathetic at best.”
This is just to dispel one’s apprehensions about my study of the Bible, OT and/or NT.
I have studied Bible, both OT and NT, from cover to cover several times; both Catholic and Protestant versions. While I studied Bible, both OT and NT, I also prepared notes; so one should be satisfied on that count. I give arguments as I perceive them myself or I concur with somebody whose arguments I honestly and sincerely believe in to be truthful.
I am an ordinary person, a man in the street. I have no claims to piety or scholarship. I believe religion is for everybody; it is not worth the name if it is not for the guidance of the ordinary people in the world in their day to day lives.
I am an open mind that is why I welcome others who comment on my posts though they may differ with me to whatever level. This provides the viewers a choice to discern truth themselves from both views with their own search and research and to the satisfaction of their hearts and souls.
I don’t debate; I believe in peaceful dialogue and peaceful discussion.
I think it to be a reasonable and rational approach.
While commenting on one of my latest post titled: “The Bible scribes did character assassination of the messenger prophets to attract more people”; our friend Hank Kimball gives his opinion.
Hank Kimball Says:
April 29, 2013
Interesting. According to who? Based on what? The statement: “Being a perfect man or an innocent man is a pre-requisite of messenger prophet of the one true creator God.” I am sure you have some ancient text that can be verified as making the claim that messenger prophets of the one true God are perfect and innocent.
I do not hold that in order that a man be a servant of God or a prophet of God or a messenger prophet, as you put it, he needs to be perfect. If it isn’t in the bible, AND it COMPLETELY renounces statements the bible makes; the source needs consideration.
If you would be so kind as to please quote the source when making claims that contradict scripture.
I quote a passage from your post:
“The statement: “Being a perfect man or an innocent man is a pre-requisite of messenger prophet of the one true creator God.” I am sure you have some ancient text that can be verified as making the claim that messenger prophets of the one true God are perfect and innocent.”
Why should one hold an ancient scripture more reliable than a new one from the one true God? If it is from the one true God; it must be accepted without putting any conditions.
Vedas are believed to be more ancient scriptures than the OT or NT; do you believe them more reliable than the OT or NT Bibles?
If not; why not?
Please give your arguments.
Also please quote from Moses and Jesus that the ancient scriptures are more reliable than the new ones.
One should note that every scripture that is ancient now was new one at his time.
I think one must have clear criteria for the reliability or truthfulness of a scripture whether it is old one or new one.