Posts Tagged ‘Sign of Jonah’

to know why we believe what we believe: “Jesus did not die on the Cross”

July 4, 2013

I visited the blog<http://withalliamgod.wordpress.com/qa/> and commented there.

The relative posts are given below for the viewers. One may join the discussion on that blog or here to find the truth in the matter.

 

Prayson Daniel

December 3, 2012 at 07:03

Hej Matthew.

It is fine to doubt and lose faith. I were in your position when I were 15-22. The best part of this period is that we start searching to know why we believe what we believe.

I wrote a lot of atonement of Christ in my blog, if you would like to find them, I have a search box all the way at the bottom.

A simple answer is no. By Jesus rising from the dead, it showed that God affirmed His atonement, and that what Jesus claim to be is true is true. I think your atheist friend failed to understand the notion of atonement as described in both old and new testament. When Jesus died a cruel death(not just physical death, but away from God’s presence of His grace and love, to God’s presence of justices and wrath), He took away the just punishment to which those who He came to save rightly deserve. Resurrection does not cancel the payment but affirms it. You could reply to your atheist friend by asking if she understands what atonement is and how it works in Jesus of Nazareth.

Matthew, the only way to keep what you believe is to know what you believe and why you believe. Take online classes on critical think(introduction to logic), buy a book or two on philosophical foundations of Christianity and systematic theology. Doubt is a gift that enable you to dig deep. I would be glad to help you help yourself. Just let me know what you need.

Yours,
Prayson

 

paarsurrey

July 3, 2013 at 17:30

Quoting your words “By Jesus rising from the dead”; I would like to state that since Jesus did not die on the Cross in the first place and he was delivered from the Cross in near-dead position; so there is no case of resurrection of Jesus from the dead; hence, there is no reality in the Christian belief of atonement.

Thanks

 

Ephrem Hagos

July 4, 2013 at 14:23

I submit that there is complete misunderstanding concerning Christ’s death on the cross because of confusion in differentiating between the TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT.

In the first, the Scriptures consistently testify about Jesus Christ’s perpetual demo, a.k.a., life-transforming “vision” of his divine identity and absolute authority, which “not even death will ever be able to overcome” (Matt. 16:18), about which Moses and Elijah witnessed in person at the Transfiguration (Ibid. 17: 1-13; Luke 9: 28-36), which were proved beyond doubt on the ground (Matt. 27: 50-56) and widely acknowledged on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2).

In the second, the so-called “near-dead position” is a speculative variant of the miracle of the apostate prophet, a.k.a., Jonah. (Matt. 12: 38-42)

 

paarsurrey

July 4, 2013 at 17:16

@ Ephrem Hagos

@ Prayson Daniel
The “near-dead position” in real terms is not speculative and fulfills the prophecy of Jesus of what was to happen to him and how the message of one true God was to be spread in future among the Israelites by Jesus.

Jonah was not dead in the belly of the fish and came out of it alive and spread the message entrusted to him by the one true God; similarly Jesus was not to die; neither on the Cross nor in the tomb he was put by his friends after the event of Crucifixion. Like Jonah went to his people after the incident of the “in the belly of the fish” and spread the message to his people; so was Jesus to go to the lost ten tribes of the Israelites who were residing in the region that fall in the present Afghanistan. KPK province of Pakistan, Kashmir; and history confirms that Jesus did go to India.

This way the prophecy of Sign of Jonah was fulfilled.

 

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Enough of proof, if one believes in Jesus

May 2, 2013
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Jesus photo shrowd of Turin

Jesus photo shrowd of Turin

 

In fact before the book “Jesus in India” was written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah and Second Coming of Jesus; hardly anybody had the concept that Jesus did not die on the Cross. This concept was revealed to him by the one true God as a strategy against the anti-Christ of our era.

Jesus promised to show Sign of Jonah to the Jews; and Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; hence if Jesus did show this sign; then he must not die a cursed death on Cross. This is enough of proof, if one believes in Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

 

Jesus created nothing; he was no god

January 28, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/punishment-for-claimants-of-divinity-in-jews-from-moses/#comment-895#comment-895

paarsurrey Says:
January 28, 2010 at 2:43 pm

Hi friend sch

Now see my friend; how many prophecies of Jesus you have mentioned in your post (which I have described as ocean of words); I have counted them to be 25 in number, if not more. So that makes Jesus a good Prophet Messenger of Creator-God Allah YHWH and that is all.

It proves that Jesus was not a god. Had Jesus been a god; then you would have mentioned things created by Jesus? Jesus did not create anything; everything was as before him.

If you want to prove Jesus to be a creator-god; mention things he created; Jesus did not create anything. Please mention as many things created by Jesus at least 25 of them like Sun, Moon and Earth; not even one of these.

The sign- the biggest one of Jesus, was that of Jonah- the Prophet; not of any god or of the Creator.
I think, now you understand and agree with me.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Jesus in the tomb: Catholics Protestants to count 3 days

January 23, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4725&p=91937#p91937

Nosubmission wrote:

More, Jesus said that the parallelism between Himself and Jonah was confined to the time of stay in a place: 3 days.

Paarsurrey says:

Now please enumerate period of 3 days, as you have mentioned. I am sure no Catholic or Protestant would ever be able to count these three days also.

Paarsurrey wrote after 3, 4 days, as no Catholic Protestant came forward to count the period of 3 days:

Hi friends

No Catholic or Protestant enumerates the period of 3 days; none a witness to it. This was not the essence of Sign of Jonah; the essence was not to die. Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; so must Jesus not die in the incident of putting him on the Cross. It is easy; the Catholics and Protestant should understand and come out of the hotch potch of Paul and the Church. Why make your religion/faith an absurdity before Atheists Agnostics for nothing?

Jesus was a wise Prophet of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; he and his mother never believed in such absurdities.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

The sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god?

January 22, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/

Aaron Says:

You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?

Paarsurrey says:

Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.

Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.

Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?

Perhaps that answers your question also.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Sign of Jonah; the biggest Sign Jesus ever promised showing; could make him maximum a Prophet only and could not add divinity to Jesus

January 22, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/#comment-864

Aaron Says:

If Jesus never claimed divinity then what was the charge for which the Jews found Him guilty and deserving of death by crucifixion?

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend aaron

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus for his claim of being a prophet; and Jesus they held to be a false prophet and for this they hanged Jesus to further prove that Jesus was a cursed man also.

In the Old Testament

“If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, ‘Let us follow other gods’ (gods you have not known) ‘and let us worship them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you” (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).

The penalty for false prophecy, according to the biblical context, is capital punishment (per Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”

Deuteronomy 21:22-23

22 When a man hath committed a crime for which he is to be punished with death, and being condemned to die is hanged on a gibbet: 23 His body shall not remain upon the tree, but shall be buried the same day: for he is accursed of God that hangeth on a tree: and thou shalt not defile thy land, which the Lord thy God shall give thee in possession.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05021.htm

Jonah was a Prophet of God Allah YHWH; if Jesus promised Jews to show them Sign of Jonah and he considered it to be his biggest sigh; then Jesus could only be a Prophet and not a god. This also shows that he considered himself to be only a Prophet of God Allah YHWH; and that is why God Allah YHWH saved Jesus life and after that Jesus went to India.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Counting of Jesus- 3 days in the tomb- by Catholics Protestants

January 20, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/posting.php?mode=quote&f=26&p=91280

Nosubmission says:

More, Jesus said that the parallelism between Himself and Jonah was confined to the time of stay in a place: 3 days.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

Since your stand is wrong so you won’t stay even on 3 days, for sure.

Now please enumerate period of 3 days, as you have mentioned. I am sure no Catholic or Protestant would ever be able to count these three days also.

Cunning Paul and Church frustrated Jesus’ showing the Sign of Jonah; Paul had to. Paul was an enemy of Jesus; when he observed that Jesus had gone out of reach of Jews plan of killing Jesus; Paul started character assassination of Jesus; and the first casualty was Jesus ever showing Sign of Jonah; as to how the Creator- God Allah YHWH saved Jesus cursed death on Cross. Paul took it on himself to prove to the simple minded “Christians”, whom Jesus named sheep that Jesus had died on the Cross for their salvation. Paul himself could not attain salvation; what salvation could he prepare for the Catholics Protestants?

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Underhand deal between Pilate and the friends of Jesus

January 20, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4725&p=91474#p91474

Nosubmission wrote:

Jonah’s going to the belly of the fish was equal to his death

Paarsurrey wrote:

Hi friends

You mean Jonah was near-death in the Belly of the fish; yes agreed. If Jesus was to show this sign then he must not die on the Cross, though he might be near-dead on the Cross to the maximum.

Jesus was near-dead on the cross, sure, nevertheless he was still alive; it is for this pretext that his bones were not broken. If Jesus could become alive from the literal dead; what difference had it made to him if his bones would have been also broken or he would have remained in the open and never taken to a tomb?

This suggests that there was an underhand deal between Pilate and the friends of Jesus. Jesus bones were not broken lest he really dies and he was hurriedly taken to an airy and spacious tomb, which could accommodate Jesus and those who wanted to treat the injured Jesus. This is what happened and when Jesus’ wounds got cured, he immigrated to India.

The Catholics Protestants should accept this truth and come out of the deception of cunning Paul as in time warned by Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

The Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, John and Luke) simply played with the teachings of Jesus and the Old Testament

May 10, 2009

Jesus of Bible is Jesus made from wax molded at whims of the Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, John and Luke)

Michelle says:

The statement of Scripture the average Jewish young man or woman was brought up on was Deut.6:4: “Hear O Israel! The LORD our God, the LORD is One”. It is in the light of this overwhelming assertion of Jewish monotheism that a claim to divinity by any Jew is to be viewed. What an astonishment it must have caused in the minds of His audience when this Jew Who came 1500 years after Moses claimed (even if indirectly) that He was of the same essence as Jehovah! Jesus, however, delighted more in calling Himself as ‘the Son of Man’ although it is John who, more than the other evangelists dared to call Him ‘the Son of God’. To be sure, the title ‘Son of Man’ carried with it the overtones of divinity although distinct from God as seen Dan. 7:13, 14. Jesus emphasized His humanity (by the use of this title) as that was more descriptive of the work He had come to complete. But we need to recognize that His work also necessitated His being God. If He had been only human, even
His human functions could not have had such eternal implications.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend michelle, miss of bombay

I think your writeup is long; please don’t mind, I would be replying it in portions.

I respect your faith.

I have to submit with all humility that to me, Jesus of Bible seems to be a helpless person in the hands of the confused and sinful evangelists. I think they carved their own Jesus from wax; they molded Jesus the way they liked and which served their own ends; having little care for Jesus or Jesus’ teachings or teachings of the Old Testament of which Jesus was a strict follower. Either they were men of poor understanding or they simply played with the teachings of Jesus and the Old Testament. Once they deserted Jesus physically as they fled away from the scene of Crucifixion; now they seem set to take revenge from Jesus’ teachings and his acts.

They were not decided about Jesus as to what he was; they were constantly in confusion, sometimes they described him Son of Man or Son of Adam, at other times they would describe him Son of God, yet another time they would say he was god. They would say he was born of Mary and hence Son of Mary; yet he was in the beginning and became flesh; and became his own father or husband of Mary. I don’t mind that; it is their insinuation or confusion; they had a right if they wanted to remain in a state of confusion.

One wonders, if they were real disciples of Jesus; as they want us to believe that Jesus was going to die only for three days and then he was going to become a living god. What need they had to run away. Were they hidden unbelievers? If they thought that Jesus was their god; what fear they should have had from the Jews or the Romans? What maximum would have happened to them in three days? At the most the Jews or the Romans would have killed them. Jesus becoming alive after three days; if he ever cared for the disciples of Bible, must have not only made them alive from the dead but must have rewarded them suitably also; like they had seen Jesus performing the miracle of making Lazarus alive from the dead, if it ever worked as per Bible.

I think they, the Evangelists doubted and never believed that Jesus had performed any such miracle or that he was going to perform now his biggest miracle of becoming himself alive from the dead.

I see the Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, John and Luke) standing in line with the Jews and not believing that Jesus showed any miracle.

Jesus of Bible admitted that the Jews won’t be shown any miracle except the sign of Jonah, if the Jews denied or Jesus did not show any miracle previously, the Evangelists deny his last Sign.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah, the Second Coming, rightly observes:

Quote
“I wonder what the Christians are so proud of! If they have a ‘God’, he is the one who died long ago and lies buried in Mohalla Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir. And if he has any miracles to his name, they are no greater than those of other Prophets, indeed Prophet Elijah showed greater miracles than he ever did. In the eyes of the Jews, Jesus (as) showed no miracles at all, and it was all deception and trickery.

This statement of the Jews is corroborated by Jesus (as) himself, for he says in the Gospels, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given unto it…” If Jesus (as) had shown miracles to the Jews, he would surely have referred to them on this occasion.”
Unquote

The sinful writers of the Gospels were not trusted disciples of Jesus; that is why Jesus left them behind and did not take them along, when he went to India along with Mary, after being saved from a cursed death on Cross by the grace and mercy of Allah. Jesus died a respectful and natural death in India, at the age of about 120 years.

This is only what we see Evangelists doing, their tricky things, in the daylight of reason and rationality.

Jesus was a great man a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH and so were his teachings; his mother Mary was a marvelous lady as per Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran, not the mythical Jesus presented by the cunning and sinful Paul and the sinful scribes.

I respect your faith; you must be guided by your own conscience freely, this is what I believe sincerely without any intention of injuring anybody else’s feelings.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

mythology woven around the person of Jesus

August 1, 2008

For one I want to make it clear that I believe in the person of Jesus, his love with one God, and God’s love with him, his message, his profound love with humanity, his sacrifice for the truth, his humility, his courage, his un-sinfulness – he is one of the outstanding personalities of the world, I really love him and the Christians.

Some learned Christian friends believe that Jesus was a “Mystery”. I would rather say humbly that let not Jesus be a closed book -a mystery, to me he was an open book for the mankind and please let him remain one like that as his greatness is in that. Let him not be a dogma, a myth, a fiction character, let every body see Jesus in reality, and in open broad daylight.

He himself had in fact unfolded this “mystery”; if any, in the likeness of a brilliant sign of Jonah of which he promised and prophesized as his last and greatest sign. I narrate it in the words of Mirza Tahir Ahmad:-

The Sign of Jonah

“We prove from the Bible that God did not abandon him and saved him from the ignoble death upon the cross. This can be studied in the light of the facts relating to the period before the Crucifixion, as well as the facts of the Crucifixion itself and after it, as related by the New Testament.

Long before that incident, Jesus promised that no sign would be shown unto the people other than the sign of Jonah.

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.’ He answered, ‘a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.’ (Matt 12:38–41)

So before we determine what happened to Jesus, we must understand what happened to Jonah, because Jesus claimed that the same miracle would be repeated. What was the Sign of Jonah? Did he die in the belly of the fish and was he later on revived from death? There is unanimity among all Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish. He precariously hung between life and death and was miraculously saved from that situation; while any other person in his place would have died. Yet some subtle laws of nature, under the Divine command, must have conspired together to save him from death. Remember, we are not debating the issue of that being possible or not. We are only pointing out that Jesus, when he pointed out that the like of what happened to Jonah would also happen to him, he could only have meant that what everyone understood to have occurred in the case of Jonah would occur in his case.

No one in the entire world of Judaism, whether in the land of Judea or anywhere else the Jews had dispersed and settled, would have received a different message from this claim of Jesus. They all believed that Jonah, miraculously or otherwise, survived for three days and nights in the belly of the fish and did not die in that period for a single moment. Of course we have our own reservations regarding this view. The story of Jonah as told to us in the Quran does not mention anywhere that it was for three days and nights that Jonah suffered his trials in the belly of the fish. However we return to the case in point and try to bring to light the actual similarities which were predicted by Jesus Christ between Jonah and himself. Those similarities spoke clearly of spending three days and nights in extremely precarious circumstances and a miraculous revival from near death, and not of coming back to life from the dead. The same, Jesus claimed, would happen in his case.”

So Jesus did not die on cross, though he was badly injured became unconscious, went into a coma, yet he survived and was taken to a room like grave, where he was treated by his confidant disciples, when his wounds got healed up he went to spread the gospel among the lost sheep of the Israel (10 tribes of Jews) who had dispersed and settled there, this had also been prophesized by Jesus.

The real beauty of Jesus is in that he was a man who struggled; when one deifies him his position is lessened instead of increasing.

Jesus was s/o of the Virgin Mary, she was neither touched by a man for the birth of Jesus nor did she become a wife of God, though she gave a natural birth to a son. Yes, being a man he was a metaphoric Son of God as per the proverbial usage common in the OT; yet he was never a literal son of God.

One could say it is perhaps due to such mythology woven around the person of Jesus that it has provided ground to one Dore Williamson, in this age of rational enlightenment, science and technology, that he has proclaimed that he/she is Jesus s/o Mary, Jesus’ Return, his 2nd arrival in the latter days. One may contact him on website http://www.dorewilliamson.com .His e-mail address is: dorewilliamson@verizon.net

Those who believe in the first mystery logically may believe in this one also.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim