Posts Tagged ‘Pentateuch’

Archaeologists don’t have list of persons existed in the world since inception

April 6, 2014

The viewers should access the following link to know the context of the discussion; and only then one should form one’s own sincere and independent opinion.
http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/comment-page-1/#comment-13846

PAARSURREY says:
April 6, 2014 at 5:22 pm

@JOHN ZANDE says:April 5, 2014 at 5:55 pm

“You seemed to imply archaeology has supported the Qur’an, whereas it clearly demolishes all claims made in the Pentateuch. What are you talking about? What has it supported? Are you, or are you not conceding Abraham and Moses were not historical characters, as modern archaeology has concluded? Please name these archaeologists you’re talking about and cite what papers have been published on their findings.” Unquote

Archaeology excavates sites; cities and or places; in this case they excavated sites mentioned in the Bible (not mentioned in Quran); if they don’t find any such cities or places , then they imply from it that the persons mentioned in the Bible also might have not existed.

It is not that they excavated the sites to necessarily find names of Abraham or Moses written on a rock.

And definitely they don’t have a list of persons that existed in the world from the date of inception to verity from it names of Abraham or Moses.

I don’t know why you cannot get it.

Do you get it? Please

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/comment-page-1/#comment-13849

PAARSURREY says:
April 6, 2014 at 5:37 pm

@JOHN ZANDE says:April 4, 2014 at 5:11 pm
“I think you’re granting far too much leeway here to people’s beliefs. The simple fact is the Pentateuch is the only source for this god: the god of Abraham and Moses. Take the Pentateuch away and there is NO Abrahamic god. I’m not at all interested in peoples different (later) interpretations of what this god is. I dismiss it at the Pentateuch. Period.” Unquote

I think you have little information about Quran/Islam/Muhammad; we Muslim have nothing to do with “Pentateuch”.

Muhammad received Revelation directly from the One-True-God; our belief is not based on what you describe as “Pentateuch”.

I don’t know as to why you don’t get it? Please

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/comment-page-1/#comment-13854

PAARSURREY says:
April 6, 2014 at 10:23 pm

I think it is you who mentioned of some consensus of the archaeologists.
Didn’t you?

I always take Quran the only 100% accurate source of knowledge; none else.

Regards

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God of Moses,Buddha,Krishna, Zoroaster, Socrates, Jesus and Muhammad is the same God in attributes

April 4, 2014

The viewers should access the following link to know the context of the post; and then they should form their own sincere and independent opinion.

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/comment-page-1/#comment-13794

PAARSURREY says:
April 4, 2014 at 4:13 pm

@JOHN ZANDE says:April 3, 2014 at 10:58 pm
“Why’s that, Paar? Isn’t the god of the Qur’an (which is the god of the Pentateuch) omnipotent?”

No that is not the perspective of Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

One reason of the revelation of Quran was that the Torah was got corrupted by the Jewish clergy. This is clearly mentioned in Quran. Hence new revelation was needed for guidance.

The other reason was that the Torah at the times of Muhammad did not contain the reason part. Quran provides the reason-content under an elaborate system. It is not commandments only; it is commandment with the wisdom.

We, Muslims are in fact happy that the archaeologists have now proved the points that Quran had mentioned about the Torah.

There is an elaborate system of explanations of the attributes of the One-True-God.

One would observe that invariably Quran provides an attributes of God at the end of a verse; the event hints at the attribute under which action of God took place.

In this meaning the whole Quran explains all attributes of God and as to how these attributes work without contradiction with other attributes; and which attributes overtakes the others.

We can say that God of Moses,Buddha,Krishna, Zoroaster, Socrates, Jesus and Muhammad is the same God in attributes.

Thanks and regards

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/#comment-13795

PAARSURREY says:
April 4, 2014 at 4:31 pm

I think I mentioned these things; but perhaps you did not get it.

Should I quote as to what I wrote about it.

I mentioned that all the archaeological excavations have been done with reference to the cities and places mentioned in the Bible; not with reference to Quran.

There is not a single site that has been excavated with reference to Quran.

Every branch of knowledge has its limitations; archaeology is also not 100% correct.

Regards

Is Islam based on the historical validity of the Pentateuch?

January 2, 2014

John Zande an Atheist has written a post titled “How Those Who’re Paid to Know, Know The Pentateurch is Historical Fiction” that could be viewed at the following link:

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/how-we-know-the-pentateurch-is-historical-fiction-11/

Paarsurrey has reblogged it with comments; the discussion on the point raised will be given here for all to comment here or on that blog.

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 5:39 pm
“Currently there is broad agreement among archaeologists and the Bible scholars that there is no historical basis for the narratives of the patriarchs, the exodus from Egypt and the conquest of Canaan, nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.”
“Let there be no doubt whatsoever, to the Yahwehist – the practicing Jew, the Christian and the Muslim – whose entire religious faith rides E X C L U S I V E L Y on the historical validity of the Pentateuch.”

I refer to the above starting lines from your post.
Since you have included name of “Muslim” along-with Jew and Christian and then mentioned “whose entire religious faith rides E X C L U S I V E L Y on the historical validity of the Pentateuch”.
Please quote from Quran where it has been mentioned that Islam is based exclusively on the historical validity of the Pentateuch.
I don’t agree with you

JOHN ZANDE says:
January 2, 2014 at 6:02 pm
You believe in the god of Abraham, right?

I think that answers your question.

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 7:45 pm
So you could not prove your point; there is nothing as such.

The One True God did not belong to Abraham exclusively; even before Abraham He conversed with others:

[3:34] Allah did choose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of ‘Imran above all peoples —
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=33

So your second foothold is also incorrect as was the first one.

john zande Wrote:

Do you, or do you not believe in the god of Abraham and Moses?

In Islam, Musa (Moses) is considered a prophet and is named 136 times in the Qur’an and Abraham is named 69 times and even described as the Middle Eastern gods best friend: “Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.” (An-Nisa Verse No:125)

You all believe in the one god: Yahweh… the god of the Pentateuch.

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 8:42 pm

That is a wrong question; we believe prophets from Adam- the first man evolved with whom the One-True-God conversed with. Why choose one man Abraham to bully the Muslims?

Your premise is wrong to start with. Please delete the name Muslim from your post and be a good Atheist with morals.

Thanks

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 9:01 pm
@ John Zande

You wrote “You all believe in the one god: Yahweh… the god of the Pentateuch”

Please quote from Quran where “Yahweh” is mentioned.

JOHN ZANDE says:
January 2, 2014 at 9:11 pm

That name is not used, but it is the god of Abraham and Moses. Do you, or do you not, agree with this?

A simple yes or no will be fine….

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 9:20 pm
I already wrote that One-True-God is not exclusively God of Abraham; he was just one person who believed in Him. One-True-God was very naturally believed by the first man evolved; the man is remembered as Adam.
Your concept is wrong; that is my point.

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 9:24 pm
There is no truth in the article with reference to Quran/Islam; your point is therefore incorrect.

PAARSURREY says:
January 3, 2014 at 4:41 pm
John Zande wrote:
“If the captains of Judaism jettison the story then its pretty much over, and someone ought to tell the Christians and the Muslims.”

Paarsurrey @ John Zande

The quote given by you in the beginning of your post from the archaeologists is with reference to Bible not with reference to any narrative of Quran.

JOHN ZANDE says:
January 3, 2014 at 4:46 pm
Paarsurrey, please show me where the god of the Qur’an is a different god to the god of the Pentateuch: the god of Abraham and Moses. If you can show me that Muslims worship a different god than the god of Abraham and Moses then i will convert to Islam instantly!

PAARSURREY says:
January 3, 2014 at 8:51 pm
The One-True-God is for everybody whether somebody believes in Him or disbelieves in Him. He is as much God of Abraham or Moses as He is of John Zande or ARKENATEN; He is for all the humanity past, present and the future. He is not racial; cannot be confined to one tribe, race or people. This point has been very truly clarified in the very first chapter of Quran named Al-Fatihah or the Opener:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 1: Al-Fatihah
[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us in the right path —
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=1

JOHN ZANDE says:
January 4, 2014 at 10:37 am
You haven’t demonstrated that its a different god…. therefore, your god is the god of the Pentateuch: the first and ONLY source for the existence of this god. So, as we’ve proven the Pentateuch to be a lie, your god is therefore also a lie.

PAARSURREY says:
January 4, 2014 at 4:10 pm
In fact if they did not find anything at sites mentioned in the Bible that proves Quran right as Quran mentions very clearly that the scribes and Jews had manipulated the Revelation of Moses:

[5:14] So, because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them, and have hardened their hearts. They pervert the words from their proper places and have forgotten a good part of that with which they were exhorted. And thou wilt not cease to discover treachery on their part, except in a few of them. So pardon them and turn away from them. Surely, Allah loves those who do good.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=5&verse=13

PAARSURREY says:
January 5, 2014 at 3:36 pm
@ John Zande

Quote:
“Currently there is broad agreement among archaeologists and the Bible scholars that there is no historical basis for the narratives of the patriarchs, the exodus from Egypt and the conquest of Canaan, nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.” Unquote

Please provide full reference and link of the article to which the above quote belongs.

JOHN ZANDE says:
January 5, 2014 at 4:12 pm
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/the-keys-to-the-kingdom-1.360222

PAARSURREY says:
January 5, 2014 at 4:15 pm
Thanks

JOHN ZANDE says:
January 5, 2014 at 4:17 pm
Pleasure. I actually misquoted it in the original. In my notes on the article (taken months ago) i had it as Mazar saying this, but I was wrong. This post was updated 2 days ago to reflect the change.

PAARSURREY says:
January 9, 2014 at 5:18 pm
@ JOHN ZANDE’s comments dated January 5, 2014 at 4:17 pm

I have read the original article on Haaretz titled “The keys to the kingdom” written By Asaf Shtull-Trauring on May 6, 2011 | 11:22 AM, as per the link provided by John Zande.

I quote following passages from the article:

1. “In striking contrast, the archaeologist Amnon Ben-Tor, from the Hebrew University, who is presently directing the Hatzor excavations, passionately defends the dating of the finds at his site. “What can I say but that with our meager powers and our ceramic knowledge we determined that the gates do in fact belong to the 10th century?” Similarly, Amihai Mazar maintains, “There is a certain problem of dating at Megiddo. At Hatzor and at Gezer there is no problem at all. The gates can be dated to the 10th century BCE, not with certainty but with no little measure of probability.”
2. Who is a Judahite?
Criticism of the earlier finds by Finkelstein and others may please Garfinkel. It enables him to claim that Khirbet Qeiyafa is different from all the sites hitherto investigated in that it is the first Judahite settlement that has been radiocarbon-dated to the 10th century BCE and also shows a highly developed level of construction. In other words, for Garfinkel this is the first site that attests saliently to the existence of an established kingdom in the 10th century and definitively rebuts the notion that David was “a sheikh in a Bedouin tent” – the viewpoint he attributes to Finkelstein.
3. However, Prof. Gershon Galil of the University of Haifa, who recently published a deciphering of the inscription, maintains that “30 major researchers accept our reading, which shows that the inscription is in Hebrew – the earliest Hebrew inscription discovered to date. Of the 18 words that appear in the inscription, eight appear only in the Bible.”

It is very clear from the article that there are two groups among the Archaeologists; one the conservative one and the other the non-conservative; both have opposing opinions.
It is wrong to conclude from the article that there is any consensus on the issue; there could be loose agreement but nothing is yet conclusive; the research is going on and is still open.
One thing is clear that the search or the research is based on the sites mentioned in the Bible; no site excavated is mentioned in Quran; hence, it has no bearing on Quran and the Truthful Religion.