Posts Tagged ‘Meccans’

Islam always spread by peace and with peace

April 8, 2014

The viewers should access the following link to know the context of the discussion; and only then one should form one’s own sincere and independent opinion.

http://anaivethinker.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/how-i-became-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-214

paarsurrey | April 8, 2014 at 4:16 pm

@anaivethinker | April 3, 2014 at 10:33 pm
@Howie | April 8, 2014 at 1:47 pm
“Islam was started by the tip of the sword” Unquote

There is no teachings of violence in Quran/Islam/Muhammad; absolutely none; and Islam/Quran promote nothing but peace.

The Meccans persecuted Muslims at Mecca; imprisoned them, killed many among them. They did not allow Muslims any free will or any freedom of religion; to the point that the Muslims had to emigrate from Mecca to Medina to save their lives and enjoy religious freedom; some 100 kilometers afar; yet they did not allow Muslims to live in peace at Medina and aggressively attacked them to finish them off the surface of the planet earth well equipped and outnumbered.

They never listened to any reason; they entered into treaties yet always broke them. They openly held that sword will decide between us.

So sword was the choice of Meccans not of Muslims.

Thanks and regards

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Atheist changes verse of Quran to prove violence in Quran: Quran peaceful

March 6, 2014

Please view Paarsurrey’s comments on the following blog for your valuable opinion:

“Dwindling In Unbelief”

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html

“Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?”

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26149572&postID=114987521408797161&page=2&token=1394143402903

paarsurrey said…

@Richard: Sun Mar 02, 06:52:00 PM 2014, Wed Mar 05, 02:50:00 PM 2014

It is very regrettable that you misquoted the verses from Quran.com.

There is no verse at that site given by you as verse number “4:89 Notice that Allah has caused the unbelievers to perish.”

I quote from that site:

4:87 Allah – there is no deity except Him. He will surely assemble you for [account on] the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. And who is more truthful than Allah in statement.
4:88 What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray – never will you find for him a way [of guidance].
4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

http://quran.com/4

Please explain where from you got the words “Notice that Allah has caused the unbelievers to perish” and presented it as “4:89”by interchanging in your post of “Sun Mar 02, 06:52:00 PM 2014”.

It changed the meaning and the whole context of the verses; very grossly indeed.

The verses pertain to the “hypocrites” specifically and do pertain to the innocent non-believers; the “hypocrites” mentioned in the verse were under a treaty with Muslims; yet they betrayed and sided with the Meccans who were at war with the Muslims; hence they fell under the charge of treason and were to be treated likewise as per the norms of the international society.

Muslims were warned not to take them in their ranks; they were not trustworthy.

Thu Mar 06, 02:03:00 PM 2014

Verse [2:191] of Quran is peaceful

February 14, 2014

My comments: blog “Random thoughts”: topic “Free speech”: link:
http://maasaiboys.wordpress.com/
http://maasaiboys.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/free-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-11801

archaeopteryx1 says:
February 13, 2014 at 19:16

Hey, Paarsurrey! You want to explain these, from your “one true god”…….?

1. Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them (2:191).
2. Make war on the infidels living in your neighbourhood (9:123).
3. When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5).
4. Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29).
5. Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85).
6. The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30).
7. Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam (5:33).
8. The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28).
9. Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies (22:19).
10. Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4).
11. The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65).
12. Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28).
13. Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12).
14. Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60).

paarsurrey says:
February 14, 2014 at 23:53
@archaeopteryx1 says:February 13, 2014 at 19:16

There is no violence verse in Quran. We will discuss the verses one by one from your list.
First we take Quran verse 2:191, at serial no.1 of you post.
I give here the context verses:
[2:191] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers
[2:193] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.
[2:195] The violation of a Sacred Month should be retaliated in the Sacred Month; and forall sacred things there is the law of retaliation. So, whoso transgresses against you, punish him for his transgression to the extent to which he has transgressed against you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=188

As one could see the verses are not general for all non-believers but are specific, as the context shows, for the Meccans who had declared a war with Muslims, they did not allow them the freedom of speech and freedom of worship,persecuted Muslims at Mecca severely to the extent that the Muslims had to migrate from Mecca to take refuge at Medina- then called Yasrub. Even then the won’t let them peacefully at Medina and continually attacked the Muslims at Medina, a hundred miles away, with large numbers.

The verse and the context verses are specific for such Meccans and not general for the non-believers.
I am already discussing this verse at another atheist blog; those who like to join there; they may give their point of view there, please:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html?showComment=1391965526224#c6475111282129573372

Welcome for discussion

Muslims, Jews, Christians and others can benefit from the use of word “Allah”

February 13, 2014

My comments on blog “Leading Malaysian Neocon”: topic “Do Islam and the Quran Have Typological Connections to the Old Testament?”;Link :

http://scottthong.wordpress.com/

http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/do-islam-and-the-quran-have-typological-connections-to-the-old-testament/#comment-521080

paarsurrey Says:
February 14, 14 at 6:26 am
@Ron :October 16, 13 at 4:27 am
@Scott Thong :October 16, 13 at 11:12 am

The word Allah was used by the infidels (the Meccans) even before the advent of Islam/Quran/Muhammad.

The decision needs to be revisited as Quran clearly permits for the Believers, the Jews, the Christians and the Sabians to believe in Allah:

[2:63] Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=62

This restriction is counter-productive; how could one propagate Islam if the Jews, the Christians and others cannot use this word Allah- the sign of ONENESS of all the attributes of One-True-God?

This is the first tenet of Islam and Islam is for everybody under the globe.

“Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?”: No, Quran is not violent; absolutely not

February 9, 2014

I have written comments on the topic “Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?” at the “Dwindling In Unbelief” blog :

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html

My comments can be read by clicking the following link:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26149572&postID=114987521408797161&page=2&token=1391965526224

paarsurrey said…

@ Richard said:
Sat Feb 08, 04:36:00 PM 2014

Ignoring the evil words of your post; I was not asking the number of verses that you think are violent in Quran; I asked to choose One- the most violent verse you think in Quran for discussion, not in comparison to Bible; but from your list of violent verses in Quran.

In this connection you have preferred to choose two places from Quran; we now discuss the first place mentioned by you namely Verses (2:191-193).

I give here the context verses:

[2:191] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers
[2:193] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.
[2:195] The violation of a Sacred Month should be retaliated in the Sacred Month; and forall sacred things there is the law of retaliation. So, whoso transgresses against you, punish him for his transgression to the extent to which he has transgressed against you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=188

As one could see the verses are not general for all non-believers but are specific, as the context shows, for the Meccans who had declared a war with Muslims and continually attacked the Muslims at Medina, a hundred miles away.

Now please prove from the verses your viewpoint that the verses are violent and against the normal behavior of human beings.

Sun Feb 09, 09:05:00 AM 2014

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I further wrote following comments:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26149572&postID=114987521408797161&page=2&token=1391981271159

paarsurrey said:

@Richard : your comments of Sun Feb 09, 11:14:00 AM 2014.

So you have not read Quran from beginning to the end yourself and you have relied on hearsay. Your observation has not come to you naturally while reading Quran yourself.

The verses of Quran are clear seen with the verses in the context; one could understand them unambiguously.

If you want to follow the wrong interpretation of the extremists; then you become one yourself. It is your own choice; it is not the teachings of Quran/Islam/Muhammad.

The verses are peaceful and rational; and according to the norms of humans in all ages.
Sun Feb 09, 01:27:00 PM 2014

Quotes from the peaceful Islam (01): Surat At-Tawbah (The Repentance) – سورة التوبة

August 7, 2013

Paarsurrey says:

I provide the text of the verse along-with the context verses:
[9:1] This is a declaration of complete absolution on the part of Allah and His Messengerfrom all obligation to the idolaters with whom you had made promises.
[9:2] So go about in the land for four months, and know that you cannot frustrate the plan of Allah and that Allah will humiliate the disbelievers.
[9:3] And this is a proclamation from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage, that Allah is clear of the idolaters, and so is His Messenger. So if you repent, it will be better for you; but if you turn away, then know that you cannot frustratethe plan of Allah. And give tidings of a painful punishment to those who disbelieve,
[9:4] Excepting those of the idolaters with whom you have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil to these the treaty you have made with them till their term. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous.
[9:5] And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their wayfree. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge.
[9:7] How can there be a treaty of these idolaters with Allah and His Messenger, except those with whom you entered into a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? So, as long as they stand true to you, stand true to them. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous.
[9:8] How can it be when, if they prevail against you, they would not observe any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of you? They would please you with their mouths, while their hearts refuse, and most of them are perfidious.
[9:9] They barter the Signs of Allah for a paltry price and turn men away from His way. Evil indeed is that which they do.
[9:10] They observe not any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of anyone who truststhem. And it is they who are transgressors.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=9

Now; what is your objection on the verses? Please

What comes to my mind...

This would be a series of simple cut and paste quotes from the Islamic book, the Quran, and translated into English according to Muslim scholars

image

 

English Source: Sahih International

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

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Buddha permits war to a soldier/General

April 2, 2013

Lotus Flower

dharma_wheel

dharma_wheel

Gospel of Buddha

“And Simha said: “One doubt still lurks in my mind concerning the doctrine of the Blessed One. Will the Blessed One consent to clear the cloud away so that I may understand the Dharmaas the Blessed One teaches it?”14

The Tathagata having given his consent, Simha continued: “I am a soldier, O Blessed One, and am appointed by the king to enforce his laws and to wage his wars. Does the Tathagata who teaches kindness without end and compassion with all sufferers, permit the punishment of the criminal? and further, does the Tathagata declare that it is wrong to go to war for the protection of our homes, our wives, our children, and our property? Does the Tathagata teach the doctrine of a complete self-surrender, so that I should suffer the evil-doer to do what he pleases and yield submissively to him who threatens to take by violence what is my own? Does the Tathagata maintain that all strife, including such warfare as is waged for a righteous cause, should be forbidden?”15

The Buddha replied: “He who deserves punishment must be punished, and he who is worthy of favor must be favored. Yet at the same time he teaches to do no injury to any living being but to be full of love and kindness. These injunctions are not contradictory, for whosoever must be punished for the crimes which he has committed, suffers his injury not through the ill-will of the judge but on account of his evil-doing. His own acts have brought upon him the injury that the executer of the law inflicts. When a magistrate punishes, let him not harbor hatred in his breast, yet a murderer, when put do death, should consider that this is the fruit of his own act. As soon as he will understand that the punishment will purify his soul, he will no longer lament his fate but rejoice at it.”16

Pages: 147-148 Chapter: LI. SIMHA’S QUESTION CONCERNING
ANNIHILATION.
http://www.arthursbookshelf.com/Buddhism/The%20Gospel%20of%20Buddha%20-%20Paul%20Carus.pdf

Paarsurrey says:

It is in this context that Quran permitted Muhammad and his companions to wage war with the Meccans:

[22:40] Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged — and Allah indeed has power to help them —

[22:41] Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is Allah’ — And if Allah did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft commemorated. And Allah will surely help one who helps Him. Allah is indeed Powerful, Mighty —

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=22&verse=39

The Islamic wars, fought by Muhammad, were not fought to spread the faith but only to protect the lives of the persecuted and innocent Muslims

May 11, 2009

~ War was always thrust upon Muslims of Muhammad’s time and they never fought with the intention of spreading the faith
~ The blame lies wholly with the ignorant Maulawis who do not value human life, and are so thirsty for blood that they eagerly await a Mahdi who, they believe, will come to cause bloodshed

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah, the Second Coming says:

Those who are acquainted with the early history of Islam
are no doubt aware of the cruelty and barbarity that was
perpetrated by the opponents in Mecca, and the number of
innocent people who were killed as a result. But this did
not deter people from embracing Islam. Even those of
limited intelligence could see that its teachings were far
more rational and convincing than those of the idol-worshippers.
When the opponents saw the futility of their
efforts, they decided that the only solution was to assassinate
the Holy Prophet (sa),but God rescued him from their
hands and led him to Medina in safety.

The Meccans,
however, persisted in their evil designs, and continued
their efforts to kill him even in Medina. Under these circumstances,
the Muslims had to defend themselves and to
avenge those who attacked them unjustly. The Islamic
wars were not fought to spread the faith but only to protect
the lives of the Muslims. Can any reasonable person
believe that Islam was unable to prove the Oneness of
God before the idolaters—who worshipped stone idols
and other inanimate objects, and were engrossed in all
kinds of vice—and had to resort to the sword for this reason?
God forbid! These allegations are groundless and
those who make them, do a grave injustice to Islam by
concealing the truth.

The Maulawis have played their part in perpetrating this
injustice, but the Christian clerics are no less guilty, for
they too have impressed these thoughts in the minds of the
Muslims by highlighting the edicts of foolish Maulawis.
When Muslims hear their own Maulawis issuing edicts in
favour of Jihad, and hear the Christian clerics—who are
also eminent scholars—raising the same objection against
Islam, they fall prey to the concept that Islam encourages
this kind of Jihad. Both these positions have given rise to
these unfounded objections against Islam.

Had the Christian clergy not adopted this course, and had
they honestly and truthfully admitted that the edicts of the
Maulawis are based on sheer ignorance, and that the circumstances
which had necessitated the Jihad during the
early days of Islam are not present in this age, the very
notion of this kind of Jihad would have disappeared from
the world. But they failed to understand this, being guided
more by their passions than their reason.

God only permitted the Muslims to fight when He saw
that the disbelievers had become deserving of death due to
their atrocities. But He also made the provision that anyone
who accepted Islam would be spared. It is this which
has, perhaps, caused the critics to draw erroneous conclusions.
They do not seem to understand that the injunction
was concerned not with coercion but with offering clemency
to those who deserved to die. Calling this teaching
coercive is the height of absurdity.

They merited their
punishment, not because they were non-Muslims, but because
they were killers. And since God was aware that
they had perfectly understood the truth of Islam, therefore,
out of His grace, He granted them an opportunity to
atone for their sins. This is further evidence that Islam did
not teach coercion, rather it provided respite to those who
should have been killed for their bloodshed.
Muslims suffered many hardships, and the degree of
prejudice that existed against them was such that if any
member of a tribe entered Islam he would at once be executed
or would live in constant fear of his life.

Muslims
had to fight to win peace. But even under these difficult
circumstances, they never drew the sword unless the two
conditions of war were met. War was always thrust upon
them and they never fought with the intention of spreading
the faith. They only fought for the sake of security and
self-defence, but ignorant Maulawis later gave it a different
complexion and began to take pride in something
quite barbaric and shameful.

But it would be wrong to lay
the blame on the teachings of Islam. The blame lies
wholly with those who do not value human life, and are
so thirsty for blood that they eagerly await a Mahdi who,
they believe, will come to cause bloodshed. They wish to
convince people that Islam has always depended upon
force and coercion for its propagation and that it does not
possess an iota of truth.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/How-to-be-Free-from-Sin-20080806MN.pdf