Posts Tagged ‘Mark’

“JESUS DID NOT DIE WHILST ON THE CROSS”

February 12, 2010

Courtesy: richarddawkins discussion forum; I give hereunder a good post on the above topic.

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=109343

Postby oombuddah » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:26 pm
Christians:

It makes sense because Jesus was only put on for a few hours! Even Josephus’ best mate survived the cross after days and days.

To worry your position even more, there is a scholarly work which shows that people would die between 3-7 days on hanging on the cross.

There is an evolution of the descriptions of torture, it looks like the latests gospels try to intensify the others.
Jesus was fed antiseptic.

Jesus was annointed with healing herbs.
No one knows the cause of his death – not even the doctors, but it is obvious that there is no cause of his death because if you look at it from a scientific viewpoint, it is in fact very unlikely that he did die in the first place.

Sure, they all agree he died but on what basis? They are looking at the evangelized accounts of his “scourging”.
Jesus was put into a roomy tomb where he can breathe.
Gosp. of John SPEAR THRUST – Raymond Brown said it was an insertion to prove docetists wrong. Biblical scholars agree that this spear thrust is extremely unlikely and UNHISTORICAL.
Jesus cried to be saved from death. God heard him.

They were professional executioners, but they aren’t always right – they are not scientists like today, try going to the point of drowning, you are unconscious for so long – it’s quite a similar phenomenon in a few ways. You are assumed dead.

Remember what happened to Paul? So many people thought he was dead, not just 2 or 3. But he got up and walked away.
It is so clear that if you analyse the science, Jesus did not die on the cross.

Pliny the Elder even had a big ass moan in his works saying that it is hard to determine when someone is actually dead or not!
Doctors who have said that Jesus died on the cross had took every single account in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John literally – Just remember that.

You would be assuming that Jesus had died on the cross. Its nothing more than an assumption. Christians know that.
They base their salvation on something which is assumed to be a miracle. They are doing half the miracle by assuming it’s a miracle.
We all know, there’s no point of me even reiterating this but hey, antiseptics have such an effect, that it can cause one to swoon.

As for guards at the tomb:

how do we know they were there? No one was there to witness the guards at the tomb – Dr. William Lane Craig and other top Christian scholars agree that the guards at the tomb are “Probably Not Historical” and could have come about from shouting matches in the form of oral traditions (to try and disprove the idea that Jesus got up and walked away with his normal body) which were then put in the gospels.

Raymond Brown, one of the top Christian scholar of our present time believes that Jesus appeared once to the disciples in which he said NOTHING. Then vanished.

There’s two ways of approaching this issue naturalistically:

1. Jesus appeared to the disciples in his human form, he disguised himself so he doesn’t get caught by the Jews, the disciples doubted it was Jesus whom they saw – the gospels attest to this idea (to back my point up).

2. Visions of Jesus – either naturalistic visions or visions granted by God – which is supported in Islamic tradition.

The thing about visionary appearances is that visions can be seen, felt and spoken too, even hugged. They can be viewed by masses of people. For example, Virgin Mary. Dr. Bart Ehrman argues in a recent debate that the resurrection appearances are visions.

Type this in on Youtube:

Virgin Mary appears to +500,000 people in Egypt!!

So appearances to the 11 really doesn’t mean anything much when Mary appears to 000’s
Did she really appear? I don’t think so, but they are adamant that she did.

Doesn’t the visionary body seem exactly the same as a resurrected body to you? I should think so.

I would also like to ask you, don’t you think Pilate would want to spare Jesus? Don’t you think the Roman centurions would seriously want to spare Jesus?

So here you are, the resurrection is disputed and surprisingly can be explained away very credibly, naturalistically.

You would need to prove that he died in the first place which is a total assumption.

How can the disciples tell a resurrected body and a visionary body which can be seen, touched, spoken to and hugged? They haven’t seen anything of a ‘resurrected nature’ before, so even if they did give firm testimony of the type of resurrection that some Christians try to prove (bodily), is this firm testimony really accurate? Of course not , only by assumption is it accurate. To assume a miracle is to assume salvation.

Look at the description of Jesus’ beating, and compare that to the other gospels (by the way, top christian and non christian scholars agree that Mark is a source of Matthew and Luke, and that Matthew and Luke evangelize and also just add extra info on Mark). The description of the beatings in Luke and Matthew are far greater than the descriptions of the beatings in Mark.
Jesus’ legs were not broken – a method done to ensure a quick death AND to ensure that if people are put into a tomb, they don’t ESCAPE!

Pilate was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED and DOUBTED when he heard Jesus had died SO EARLY. The centurion went to check and looked at him – he didn’t know for sure obviously, but he said that he died.

(I am an Ex-Christian Convert to Islam, I have tried my best to minimize bias towards my particular belief – Jesus swooned). But it makes sense naturalistically right?

Dr. Richard Carrier believes that the resurrection appearances was based on an assumption from looking at Isaiah 53.
Even if Jesus was to remain alive, because they saw him, they would assume he resurrected from the dead anyway lol

Isaiah 53 Suffering servant = ISRAEL! NOT JESUS!

Punishment for claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses

January 22, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/#comments

Aaron Says:

You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend Aaron

Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.
Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.
Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?
Perhaps that answers your question also.

Aaron Says:

Hi,

It sounds like you want it both ways. You did not quote Matthew’s Gospel about the charge Jesus was condemned: blasphemy (an example of Jesus’ claim to divine authority). But you reference Matthew’s Gospel about Jonah. I think philosophers call what you are doing the fallacy of “manufacturing facts from a theory” and/or “special pleading”. You are rewriting the New Testament to fit your procrustean bed.
Would you please explain why you don’t believe Jesus was condemned for blasphemy as it is recorded in Matthew 26:65 and why you believe Matthew 12:39-41? From Matthew’s Gospel, can you tell me what texts of the Old Testament Jesus used in His response to the High Priest (Matthew 26:64)?
Jesus’ death, resurrection, and empty tomb is good news for all who believe. Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24).
Regards,
Aaron

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends Aaron

I think I had already elaborated my position regarding gospels in my previous post:

Quote: “Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.” Unquote.

If Jesus never attempted to write any gospels in Judea; how could I dare write it? It was cunning Paul and the clever Church who got hold of anonymous writings and for their own motives and after editing and naming arbitrarily, presented it as Gospels. Jesus had nothing to do with this plethora of writings. He never authorized or dictated anybody to publish this stuff in his absence when he was alive and living happily in India.

I was waiting for you response to mention punishment of claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses. Would you please respond?
May the Creator- God Allah YHWH bless you! And may He open your heart for acceptance of truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

The sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god?

January 22, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/

Aaron Says:

You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?

Paarsurrey says:

Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.

Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.

Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?

Perhaps that answers your question also.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

John never witnessed Jesus’ Crucifixion

January 16, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4657&p=90570#p90570
Quran, 4:157

Eagle wrote:

Your gospels are unambiguous to the fact ALL disciples fled when Jesus got arrested and Peter’s fear of arrest caused him to repeatedly deny that he even knew Jesus.

ThereIs1Adonai wrote:

John was that disciple and he is the one who leaned on Jesus’ chest at the last supper. He writes this of himself.

Eagle wrote:

There is absolutely no proof that the unnamed disciple mentioned by John’s Gospel’s writer (mentioned in the 3rd person by the way, why would John mention himself in the 3rd person?) in Jn19:25-27 is John the son of Zebedee. That traditional interpretation is still a matter of dispute among scholars. Also, the other gospels don’t mention a “disciple whom Jesus loved”. They also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross, not to mention that execution sites were guarded by Romans and surely wouldn’t allow anyone near.
That unknown and unnamed disciple you are referring to could be the author of John’s Gospel as it seems from Jn21:24.

Skenderbeg wrote:

Can you Muslims tell me then who was supposed to write it down for us to know?

Eagle wrote:

Jesus had very little followers in his lifetime.

Can your bible scholars say for sure who wrote the gospels attributed to Mark, John, Luke, Matthew? as 4:157-8 says, Jesus’ enemies claimed to have killed him, others that they crucified him and this grew into a legend which crept into those books whose authorship is questioned by modern scholarship.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

Very scholarly and truthful comments by Eagle; I agree with him.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Bible.

Thanks

Gospels were written by anonymous writers

January 10, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/was-joseph-smith-junior-a-messengerprophet-of-jesus-and-not-of-god-allah-yhwh/#comment-844

ditchu says:

The bible was written by those inspired by God

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend ditchu

The Gospels were written by anonymous writers and only given names Matthew, Marks, John etc, to provide credence to them. How could you say they were inspired people? They wrote things of which they were not a first hand witness. Is hearsay an inspiration? Please don’t mind; we are discussing to know the truth. I respect your faith.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

No fake witnessing of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul was needed by Jesus

June 3, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

I quote from John 8:19.

John 8:
16 And if I do judge, my judgment is true: because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that give testimony of myself: and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me. 19 They said therefore to him: Where is thy Father? Jesus answered: Neither me do you know, nor my Father: if you did know me, perhaps you would know my Father also.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50008.htm

The sinful scribes or the Church as depicted by Bible; did follow the Jews, instead of following Jesus. Jesus maintained that he needed no witnessing for his truthfulness.

God Allah YHWH was sufficient for his witnessing that Jesus was a Messenger of God; sent by God Allah YHWH with a message.

Moses did not need a witnessing of men; Noah did not need a witnessing of men; Jonah did not need a witnessing of men. All these persons Moses, Noah, Jonah and Jesus were to judge the people; they were not to be judged by them.

When people denied them, the Messengers; they were punished by God Allah YHWH; one should read what happened to the people to whom Noah was sent; when they denied the Message of Noah, they all got drowned.

So, only witnessing of Allah and his Messenger is sufficient; no fake witnessing of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was needed by Jesus.

Peace; I respect your faith; you are free to believe whatever you are convinced with.

I love Jesus and Mary as described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

“I believe the Bible, you believe the Quran.”- Len Nederlof

May 26, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend Len Nederlof

It is good that you don’t believe in Paul but you believe in Jesus. Now, the question is; what revealed book did Jesus read? He used to read and follow Torah of Moses.

Jesus never founded any church. Jesus never read the Gospels written by sinful Matthew, sinful Mark, sinful John and sinful Luke. These never existed in his time.

I think you are a straightforward friend; so logically, if you are a follower of Jesus, you should not believe what has been written by the above named sinful scribes or the cunning Paul; they deserted Jesus and that is sufficient for their having no credulity.

I love Jesus and Mary as described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

I give hereunder the e-mail sent to me by my friend Nederlof, to share it with the viewers of this blog.

Len Nederlof says:

Hello Paarsurrey … You and I are both ‘believers’ but we believe different accounts, I believe the Bible, you believe the Quran.

1. Josephus, in addition to the Biblical authors, and others have adequately documented the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus as a historical fact.

2. Since Adam sinned against God all of mankind is born into sin and needs a Savior in order to restore a relationship with God. That Savior was promised by God to Eve and later confirmed by the prophet Isaiah and He is Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah. Since the penalty for sin is death, ‘death’ had to be defeated, and so Jesus ‘died’ as an atonement for the sins of mankind so that men and women who believed in that atonement would regain a relationship with God now and into eternity. The apostle Peter said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off – for all whom the Lord our God will call.” – Acts 2:38-39

3. Jesus did not commit suicide. He allowed himself to be killed (as prophesied) as an atonement for the sins of mankind. The apostle John said, “For God so loved the world that He gave (GAVE) His one and only Son, (Jesus of Nazareth) that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send (SEND) His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save (SAVE) the world (you and me) through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son (Jesus of Nazareth).” – John 3:16-18

These things are not a question of reasonable and logical arguments. They are spiritual matters and they are spiritually discerned. I am a Christian, a Jesus follower, not a Paul follower like so many others who call themselves Christian.

Who do you follow? Who do you believe? You say you love Mary and Jesus. Why? Why do you bother to believe anything. You can’t prove that what you believe is correct. You, too, depend on the writing of other men.

I suspect that you are a very learned man; you are a scholar and know many things. Since I have accepted Jesus into my heart and life the Holy Spirit confirms to me that what I believe is the truth. “But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” – John 3:21

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

3. 3. Jesus did not commit suicide. He allowed himself to be killed in order to be the atonement mankind needed for salvation. He gave up His life willingly because that was what was needed

On 18-May-09, at 6:55 AM, Paar Surrey wrote:

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/there-is-little-historicity-in-the-bible-as-mostly-it-consists-of-fables-and-stories-written-mythically/

Muhammad was a Messenger Prophet like Moses

April 26, 2009

fgenej11 says:

If you use this reasoning, how do you know that Muhammad was speaking for Allah? He was a fallible man too wasn’t he? How can you believe that anything he wrote was the truth?

Paarsurrey says:

Muhammad was a Messenger Prophet like Moses. When Moses went to the mountain to have a dialogue with God Allah YHWH he had no other witnesses there; there could be no other witnesses logically, as the dialogue or conversation was between two persons. This has been the case with all the truthful Messengers Prophets of the world.

Who was the witness when God Allah YHWH talked to Jonah? Who was the witness when God Allah YHWH talked to John the Baptist? There was none, and nobody else was needed, as God is sufficient as a witness.

If somebody stands as a witness when he is not present when conversation between two persons takes place; such a person is a fake witness.

If Paul or Matthew or Mark or John or Luke stand as a witness to the conversation between God and Jesus, while they were not invited to be present in the meeting between God and Jesus; then certainly they cannot be true witnesses. It is as simple as that.
Paul or Matthew or Mark or John or Luke were not present when God talke to Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as I love Moses, Jonah and John the Baptist.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim