Posts Tagged ‘Luke’

NT Bible is errant; written by errant scribes; not by Jesus

November 24, 2011

There took place an interesting discussion on the above topic, initiated by me, on my favorite discussion forum, the hubpages. I have omitted some of the posts which were not directly related to the issue of the topic and which don’t add any meaning to the discussion at hand; the conversation is given hereunder for the viewers of this blog with courtesy of hubpages. I, however, respect and love all the posters on the hubpages.One may access the following link to see the whole of it.

OP by Paarsurrey

Jesus did not belong to the physical lineage of King David as written by errant Matthew and errant Luke.

1. Greek One

I thought the scribes were sinful, now you are saying they are errant?

2. A Troubled Man

Who actually wrote the Quran? Muhammad? Allah?

3. Couturepopcafe
I don’t know where you got your information, but David was of the lineage of Levi.

4. Paarsurrey

Initially, David was king over the Tribe of Judah only and ruled from Hebron, but after seven years the other Israelite tribes chose him to be their king as well:

Then came all the tribes of Israel to David to Hebron, and spoke, saying: ‘Behold, we are your bone and your flesh. In times past, when Saul was king over us, it was you that did lead out and bring in Israel; and the Lord said to you: You shalt feed my people Israel, and you shall be prince over Israel.’ So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a covenant with them in Hebron before the Lord; and they anointed David king over Israel… (2 Samuel 5:1-3).

Kind David was from the tribe of Judah, not a Levite. “Then the men of Judah came to Hebron and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. When David was told that it was the men of Jabesh Gilead who had buried Saul,”
2 Samuel 2:4

5. Couturepopcafe

You are right. David was son of Jesse who was of Judah, but this is according to the book of Matthew. I couldn’t find anything about Mary’s lineage at all except that she was a cousin to Elizabeth of the daughters of Aaron son of Kohath son of Levi. So that could indicate that she was a Levite and it would make sense because the Levites were chosen not to be numbered among the 12 tribes but to be the keepers of the tabernacle. Yet the angel who appeared to Mary in Luke said the Lord shall give unto Jesus the throne of his father, David. Perhaps, since Jacob had the biggest blessing of old, it was a metaphor for being given the throne of the greatest king and the people of the largest blessing.

6. Emile R

You could never prove that claim. Why make it?

7. Paarsurrey

Did Jesus write the NT Bible? He never wrote it. Did he?

8. Emile R

You claimed he wasn’t from the line of David. You also claimed the writers were errant. They never claimed he wrote the words. I don’t follow the point you are attempting to make.
9. Paarsurrey

Jesus had no father; he had only mother named Mary who was from the Levites not from King David.

So Matthew and Luke are errant to mention Jesus from the line of King David.

10. Emile R

I have no idea why I am even discussing this with you. No one can prove one way or the other. But;

Little is known of her personal history. Her genealogy is given in Luke 3. She was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David (Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32). She was connected by marriage with Elisabeth, who was of the lineage of Aaron (Luke 1:36).

I got that off of the internet. I’m sure you can find something on the internet to refute it.

No one can prove, or disprove, anything at this point. So, you are arguing for argument’s sake. All of your arguments are somewhat flat. I doubt you’ve even read the text. Why not simply enjoy being a Muslim, let the Christians enjoy being Christian and call it a day?

11. Couturepopcafe

Emile – There is no lineage for Mary in Luke 3 or Luke 1. Nothing in Psalm 132:11 either. It was supposed (at the time) that Joseph was Jesus’ father, and Luke states that Joseph is of David but that has nothing to do with Jesus.

12. Emile R

Like I said, I found it on the internet so you can quickly find something to refute it.

13. Couturepopcafe

Yeah, I’m not necessarily refuting it, just trying to find it. I did go to a KJ version but it should be in there even if the wording is a little different but there was absolutely nothing referring to this. Pretty scary when the Internet is wrong. OMG

14. Emile R

You are kidding? I’m sure. Faulty information on the internet is what keeps half these conversations going. Anyway, it has always been a muddled up mess on that front. Two different accounts in two different books. Some say the account in Luke follows Mary’s line, but it doesn’t appear that way in a simple read.

I always heard it was impossible to know because the primary genealogical records were in the second temple which was destroyed so early on. 70 AD. I think the movement was too young at that point to have organized itself well enough to document everything it felt needed to be known. Even had they wanted accuracy, could a Christian have gained access to a Jewish temple to review official records?

The text does say (in Luke 1) that Elisabeth is of the priestly line. Mary is her cousin, so if that is a blood relationship Mary would be of the same line. Even though they immediately start with the premise that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, they also label Joseph the father at various places. So, I guess maybe they were trying to convince skeptical first century Jews that he was the promised messiah by Joseph’s lineage.

I doubt we’ll ever know.

15. Couturepopcafe

Yes, sarcasm.

16. Paarsurrey

The Jews were waiting for good royal days of David to come again in the time of Messiah; and thought that he would be from the lineage of David.

The Gospel writers attempted to convince Jews that Jesus was from the line of David; while Jesus was not.

A frustrated attempt

NT Bible is errant; written by errant scribes; neither authored by the Creator god nor by Jesus; nor dictated by Jesus; not even written by men authorised in writing by Jesus to write it on his behalf.

As one could see; it is not work of an inspiration either.

17. Couturepopcafe

paarsurrey – I never heard anything about Jesus writing the NT. He is quoted there.

If you follow the lineage of the tribe of Levi, you will find David. David, Mary, and Jesus were all Levites.

18. Couturepopcafe

I was wrong about the above line of Levi.

19. Paarsurrey
David was from Judah.
Mary was from Levite; and Jesus from mother’s side was a Levite. A father Jesus never had.

A failed attempt of errant gospel writers to link Jesus with David in lineage.

Gospels are not work of inspiration either; angels cannot inspire such incorrect information.

20. Couturepopcafe

I can’t dispute this, not according to what I’ve read anyway. Matthew links Jesus with David but only through Joseph. I can’t find any real lineage through Mary. Not that I’m a scholar but I can read. Sorry, guys, but paars has a good point in disputing this. I thought perhaps Matthew may have used the ‘throne of David’ as a metaphor for being the greatest king but he actually sites a lineage which is supposed to be from David. I’d like to see some written evidence to the contrary.

21. Paarsurrey

You are welcome to research.

NT Bible is errant; written by errant scribes; not by Jesus; and Holy Spirit does not inspire to errant and sinful persons; it is the evil spirit in them which inspired them.

22. Couturepopcafe

paars – I’ve just gone to your hubs. I don’t like to disrespect anyone but after seeing your writing regarding Jesus not dying, I’m scratching my head.

The piece is completely taken out of context and lacks historical placement. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with the actual resurrection and death, but according to the local customs of the time, the body of anyone would have had to be properly bound and entombed. They revered this man, a poor man who had no tomb, so the rich man Jos. nee Arimithea, offered his own tomb.

Perhaps it would be helpful to the world if you would convey the wonderful teachings of the peaceful and completely unflawed Quran instead of breaking down the Bible. Or is it possible that you do not know it well enough?

23. Disappearinghead

Muhammed was a sinner Paar.

24. Couturepopcafe

Yes, paars, men are flawed. Any inspiration that may have come through the angels were allegedly the message from god.

25. Emile R

The gospels don’t claim to be inspired. They are simply an accounting of the words and actions of Jesus; the crucifixion and the resurrection. Eye witness accounts; not claims that an angel no one else could see had said it. Just simple recording of events.

26. Paarsurrey

Gospels did not record event of crucifixion and resurrection by the eye-witnesses; it is written they all deserted Jesus and fled away.


Hubpages is a good discussion site; one could comment there or here in this blog; comments are most welcome.


February 12, 2010

Courtesy: richarddawkins discussion forum; I give hereunder a good post on the above topic.

Postby oombuddah » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:26 pm

It makes sense because Jesus was only put on for a few hours! Even Josephus’ best mate survived the cross after days and days.

To worry your position even more, there is a scholarly work which shows that people would die between 3-7 days on hanging on the cross.

There is an evolution of the descriptions of torture, it looks like the latests gospels try to intensify the others.
Jesus was fed antiseptic.

Jesus was annointed with healing herbs.
No one knows the cause of his death – not even the doctors, but it is obvious that there is no cause of his death because if you look at it from a scientific viewpoint, it is in fact very unlikely that he did die in the first place.

Sure, they all agree he died but on what basis? They are looking at the evangelized accounts of his “scourging”.
Jesus was put into a roomy tomb where he can breathe.
Gosp. of John SPEAR THRUST – Raymond Brown said it was an insertion to prove docetists wrong. Biblical scholars agree that this spear thrust is extremely unlikely and UNHISTORICAL.
Jesus cried to be saved from death. God heard him.

They were professional executioners, but they aren’t always right – they are not scientists like today, try going to the point of drowning, you are unconscious for so long – it’s quite a similar phenomenon in a few ways. You are assumed dead.

Remember what happened to Paul? So many people thought he was dead, not just 2 or 3. But he got up and walked away.
It is so clear that if you analyse the science, Jesus did not die on the cross.

Pliny the Elder even had a big ass moan in his works saying that it is hard to determine when someone is actually dead or not!
Doctors who have said that Jesus died on the cross had took every single account in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John literally – Just remember that.

You would be assuming that Jesus had died on the cross. Its nothing more than an assumption. Christians know that.
They base their salvation on something which is assumed to be a miracle. They are doing half the miracle by assuming it’s a miracle.
We all know, there’s no point of me even reiterating this but hey, antiseptics have such an effect, that it can cause one to swoon.

As for guards at the tomb:

how do we know they were there? No one was there to witness the guards at the tomb – Dr. William Lane Craig and other top Christian scholars agree that the guards at the tomb are “Probably Not Historical” and could have come about from shouting matches in the form of oral traditions (to try and disprove the idea that Jesus got up and walked away with his normal body) which were then put in the gospels.

Raymond Brown, one of the top Christian scholar of our present time believes that Jesus appeared once to the disciples in which he said NOTHING. Then vanished.

There’s two ways of approaching this issue naturalistically:

1. Jesus appeared to the disciples in his human form, he disguised himself so he doesn’t get caught by the Jews, the disciples doubted it was Jesus whom they saw – the gospels attest to this idea (to back my point up).

2. Visions of Jesus – either naturalistic visions or visions granted by God – which is supported in Islamic tradition.

The thing about visionary appearances is that visions can be seen, felt and spoken too, even hugged. They can be viewed by masses of people. For example, Virgin Mary. Dr. Bart Ehrman argues in a recent debate that the resurrection appearances are visions.

Type this in on Youtube:

Virgin Mary appears to +500,000 people in Egypt!!

So appearances to the 11 really doesn’t mean anything much when Mary appears to 000’s
Did she really appear? I don’t think so, but they are adamant that she did.

Doesn’t the visionary body seem exactly the same as a resurrected body to you? I should think so.

I would also like to ask you, don’t you think Pilate would want to spare Jesus? Don’t you think the Roman centurions would seriously want to spare Jesus?

So here you are, the resurrection is disputed and surprisingly can be explained away very credibly, naturalistically.

You would need to prove that he died in the first place which is a total assumption.

How can the disciples tell a resurrected body and a visionary body which can be seen, touched, spoken to and hugged? They haven’t seen anything of a ‘resurrected nature’ before, so even if they did give firm testimony of the type of resurrection that some Christians try to prove (bodily), is this firm testimony really accurate? Of course not , only by assumption is it accurate. To assume a miracle is to assume salvation.

Look at the description of Jesus’ beating, and compare that to the other gospels (by the way, top christian and non christian scholars agree that Mark is a source of Matthew and Luke, and that Matthew and Luke evangelize and also just add extra info on Mark). The description of the beatings in Luke and Matthew are far greater than the descriptions of the beatings in Mark.
Jesus’ legs were not broken – a method done to ensure a quick death AND to ensure that if people are put into a tomb, they don’t ESCAPE!

Pilate was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED and DOUBTED when he heard Jesus had died SO EARLY. The centurion went to check and looked at him – he didn’t know for sure obviously, but he said that he died.

(I am an Ex-Christian Convert to Islam, I have tried my best to minimize bias towards my particular belief – Jesus swooned). But it makes sense naturalistically right?

Dr. Richard Carrier believes that the resurrection appearances was based on an assumption from looking at Isaiah 53.
Even if Jesus was to remain alive, because they saw him, they would assume he resurrected from the dead anyway lol

Isaiah 53 Suffering servant = ISRAEL! NOT JESUS!

“Word become flesh”- a wrong notion of Catholics Protestants if taken literally

February 10, 2010

somethingcrazy Says:

If you want to see that Jesus created, then just check out the first verses of John’s gospel:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning”

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend somethingcrazy

I thank you for participating in the discussion.
Please go through the passages quoted by you again. I don’t see Jesus’ name mentioned in them; if I have missed please underline Jesus’ name in them.

I think it is only a guess of the Catholics Protestants that Jesus’ name has been literally mentioned there; maybe it is just another phenomenon, which John, only a human being wrongly took up like that; nevertheless it is not binding on others to subscribe to John’s mistakes or his wrong views or concepts.

I think it is a mistake of our Christian friends to make Jesus a god; like our Hindu friends have made Krishna a god, in my opinion.
But for Paul; Jesus truthful followers would have never taken Jesus to be a god. Matthew, Marks and Luke did not mention that Word has become flesh.

You might have spoken many words in your life. Did you ever see that any of your Word has become flesh? Your Word would have never even smelt like flesh. It is your tongue and lips and your throat made of flesh that help one to make words, and of course the teeth made of bones, which helps to make the words. The reverse phenomenon never happens, in my opinion.

It is just a mistake of John, or those who wrote for John that they thought otherwise, in my opinion.

Jesus never thought like this; how could he had claimed to be god when he knew that he literally created no new Sun, no new Moon and no new Earth. It is only an accusation of Catholics Protestants against Jesus that Jesus claimed to be literally god.

Jesus could have asserted himself for his claims and reasons more clearly and in a straightforward manner. Whom Jesus as a god had to fear about? Jesus needed no self-appointed spokesmen like Paul or Church, in my opinion. Since Jesus was not god so he did not claim it unequivocally.

I love Jesus for his wisdom. Jesus feared nobody except God Allah YHWH whose humble servant Jesus was, in my opinion.


I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Punishment for claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses

January 22, 2010

Aaron Says:

You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend Aaron

Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.
Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.
Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?
Perhaps that answers your question also.

Aaron Says:


It sounds like you want it both ways. You did not quote Matthew’s Gospel about the charge Jesus was condemned: blasphemy (an example of Jesus’ claim to divine authority). But you reference Matthew’s Gospel about Jonah. I think philosophers call what you are doing the fallacy of “manufacturing facts from a theory” and/or “special pleading”. You are rewriting the New Testament to fit your procrustean bed.
Would you please explain why you don’t believe Jesus was condemned for blasphemy as it is recorded in Matthew 26:65 and why you believe Matthew 12:39-41? From Matthew’s Gospel, can you tell me what texts of the Old Testament Jesus used in His response to the High Priest (Matthew 26:64)?
Jesus’ death, resurrection, and empty tomb is good news for all who believe. Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24).

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends Aaron

I think I had already elaborated my position regarding gospels in my previous post:

Quote: “Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.” Unquote.

If Jesus never attempted to write any gospels in Judea; how could I dare write it? It was cunning Paul and the clever Church who got hold of anonymous writings and for their own motives and after editing and naming arbitrarily, presented it as Gospels. Jesus had nothing to do with this plethora of writings. He never authorized or dictated anybody to publish this stuff in his absence when he was alive and living happily in India.

I was waiting for you response to mention punishment of claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses. Would you please respond?
May the Creator- God Allah YHWH bless you! And may He open your heart for acceptance of truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.


The sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god?

January 22, 2010

Aaron Says:

You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?

Paarsurrey says:

Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.

Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.

Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?

Perhaps that answers your question also.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.


John never witnessed Jesus’ Crucifixion

January 16, 2010
Quran, 4:157

Eagle wrote:

Your gospels are unambiguous to the fact ALL disciples fled when Jesus got arrested and Peter’s fear of arrest caused him to repeatedly deny that he even knew Jesus.

ThereIs1Adonai wrote:

John was that disciple and he is the one who leaned on Jesus’ chest at the last supper. He writes this of himself.

Eagle wrote:

There is absolutely no proof that the unnamed disciple mentioned by John’s Gospel’s writer (mentioned in the 3rd person by the way, why would John mention himself in the 3rd person?) in Jn19:25-27 is John the son of Zebedee. That traditional interpretation is still a matter of dispute among scholars. Also, the other gospels don’t mention a “disciple whom Jesus loved”. They also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross, not to mention that execution sites were guarded by Romans and surely wouldn’t allow anyone near.
That unknown and unnamed disciple you are referring to could be the author of John’s Gospel as it seems from Jn21:24.

Skenderbeg wrote:

Can you Muslims tell me then who was supposed to write it down for us to know?

Eagle wrote:

Jesus had very little followers in his lifetime.

Can your bible scholars say for sure who wrote the gospels attributed to Mark, John, Luke, Matthew? as 4:157-8 says, Jesus’ enemies claimed to have killed him, others that they crucified him and this grew into a legend which crept into those books whose authorship is questioned by modern scholarship.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

Very scholarly and truthful comments by Eagle; I agree with him.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Bible.


No fake witnessing of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul was needed by Jesus

June 3, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

I quote from John 8:19.

John 8:
16 And if I do judge, my judgment is true: because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that give testimony of myself: and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me. 19 They said therefore to him: Where is thy Father? Jesus answered: Neither me do you know, nor my Father: if you did know me, perhaps you would know my Father also.

The sinful scribes or the Church as depicted by Bible; did follow the Jews, instead of following Jesus. Jesus maintained that he needed no witnessing for his truthfulness.

God Allah YHWH was sufficient for his witnessing that Jesus was a Messenger of God; sent by God Allah YHWH with a message.

Moses did not need a witnessing of men; Noah did not need a witnessing of men; Jonah did not need a witnessing of men. All these persons Moses, Noah, Jonah and Jesus were to judge the people; they were not to be judged by them.

When people denied them, the Messengers; they were punished by God Allah YHWH; one should read what happened to the people to whom Noah was sent; when they denied the Message of Noah, they all got drowned.

So, only witnessing of Allah and his Messenger is sufficient; no fake witnessing of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was needed by Jesus.

Peace; I respect your faith; you are free to believe whatever you are convinced with.

I love Jesus and Mary as described in Quran.


I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

“I believe the Bible, you believe the Quran.”- Len Nederlof

May 26, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend Len Nederlof

It is good that you don’t believe in Paul but you believe in Jesus. Now, the question is; what revealed book did Jesus read? He used to read and follow Torah of Moses.

Jesus never founded any church. Jesus never read the Gospels written by sinful Matthew, sinful Mark, sinful John and sinful Luke. These never existed in his time.

I think you are a straightforward friend; so logically, if you are a follower of Jesus, you should not believe what has been written by the above named sinful scribes or the cunning Paul; they deserted Jesus and that is sufficient for their having no credulity.

I love Jesus and Mary as described in Quran.


I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

I give hereunder the e-mail sent to me by my friend Nederlof, to share it with the viewers of this blog.

Len Nederlof says:

Hello Paarsurrey … You and I are both ‘believers’ but we believe different accounts, I believe the Bible, you believe the Quran.

1. Josephus, in addition to the Biblical authors, and others have adequately documented the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus as a historical fact.

2. Since Adam sinned against God all of mankind is born into sin and needs a Savior in order to restore a relationship with God. That Savior was promised by God to Eve and later confirmed by the prophet Isaiah and He is Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah. Since the penalty for sin is death, ‘death’ had to be defeated, and so Jesus ‘died’ as an atonement for the sins of mankind so that men and women who believed in that atonement would regain a relationship with God now and into eternity. The apostle Peter said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off – for all whom the Lord our God will call.” – Acts 2:38-39

3. Jesus did not commit suicide. He allowed himself to be killed (as prophesied) as an atonement for the sins of mankind. The apostle John said, “For God so loved the world that He gave (GAVE) His one and only Son, (Jesus of Nazareth) that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send (SEND) His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save (SAVE) the world (you and me) through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son (Jesus of Nazareth).” – John 3:16-18

These things are not a question of reasonable and logical arguments. They are spiritual matters and they are spiritually discerned. I am a Christian, a Jesus follower, not a Paul follower like so many others who call themselves Christian.

Who do you follow? Who do you believe? You say you love Mary and Jesus. Why? Why do you bother to believe anything. You can’t prove that what you believe is correct. You, too, depend on the writing of other men.

I suspect that you are a very learned man; you are a scholar and know many things. Since I have accepted Jesus into my heart and life the Holy Spirit confirms to me that what I believe is the truth. “But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” – John 3:21

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

3. 3. Jesus did not commit suicide. He allowed himself to be killed in order to be the atonement mankind needed for salvation. He gave up His life willingly because that was what was needed

On 18-May-09, at 6:55 AM, Paar Surrey wrote:

Muhammad was a Messenger Prophet like Moses

April 26, 2009

fgenej11 says:

If you use this reasoning, how do you know that Muhammad was speaking for Allah? He was a fallible man too wasn’t he? How can you believe that anything he wrote was the truth?

Paarsurrey says:

Muhammad was a Messenger Prophet like Moses. When Moses went to the mountain to have a dialogue with God Allah YHWH he had no other witnesses there; there could be no other witnesses logically, as the dialogue or conversation was between two persons. This has been the case with all the truthful Messengers Prophets of the world.

Who was the witness when God Allah YHWH talked to Jonah? Who was the witness when God Allah YHWH talked to John the Baptist? There was none, and nobody else was needed, as God is sufficient as a witness.

If somebody stands as a witness when he is not present when conversation between two persons takes place; such a person is a fake witness.

If Paul or Matthew or Mark or John or Luke stand as a witness to the conversation between God and Jesus, while they were not invited to be present in the meeting between God and Jesus; then certainly they cannot be true witnesses. It is as simple as that.
Paul or Matthew or Mark or John or Luke were not present when God talke to Jesus.

I love Jesus and Mary as I love Moses, Jonah and John the Baptist.


I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus is neither Son of God nor God in physical/literal sense but in metaphoric sense as per usage of Bible

November 15, 2008

Our learned friend R H Kelkar, who has translated New Testament into Marathi, a language in South India, has made following observations in his write-up titled “The Meaning of ‘Nava Karar “which could be viewed in entirety at :

We only give here only one point mentioned by him:

The New Testament or ‘Nava Karar’ portrays God as a loving and forgiving father, who sent His son Jesus Christ to this world in human form with an offer of salvation for all humanity.

Paarsurrey says:

The above point is not correctly derived by him from the OTBible; and hence it is not supported by Quran- the pristine and most secure Revealed Book among the Revealed Religions and hence incorrect. God is not a physical being; He has rather created the whole physical phenomenon as He willed. Nobody shares this or other of his attributes. Hence God is nobody’s physical or literal father.

God is father of the humans in a metaphoric sense, nothing could get created without his order/will; and this is the theme of the OTBible. God has no literal wife or He needs no sex that his off-shoots are called Sons of God. This is only in the metaphoric sense otherwise it does not carry any meaning literally and physically. GodAllahYHWH needs no wife or son; this is only a phenomenon of the mortal beings and a sort of extension of life given by the Creator to one’s species. GodAllahYHWH is immortal. Quran is very clear in this aspect:

[112:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say ‘He is Allah, the One!
[112:3] Allah the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] ‘He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.

We can agree with R H Kelkar if he reconciles to the above explanation.

Jesus did not pay any debt of any human beings as maintained by R H Kelkar. Jesus never died a cursed death on Cross as incorrectly invented by Paul at Rome to misguide the Christian sheep. Jesus was not a scapegoat of Paul and his associated i.e., the Catholic Church.

If anybody has any debt, he shall have to pay it himself. When Paul propounded this philosophy, Jesus was at that time traveling in India, happily among his Jewish lost sheep of which he was also a shepherd. He was never a shepherd of the Gentiles; this is a concept wrongly ascribed to Jesus; this debt Paul shall have to pay for.

OTBible Says:

Son of God

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. JOHN 3.16

And they made a proclamation in Judah and Jerusalem unto all the children of captivity. EZRA 10.7

Then said he, These are the two sons of oil, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. ZECHARIA 4.14

Behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial [satin], beset the house round about. JUDGES 19.22

The good seed are the children of the kingdom. MATTHEW 13.38


Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan was among them. JOB 1.6 & 2:1

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy. JOB 38.7

That the sons of god saw the daughters of men that they were fair. GENESIS 6.2


And thou shalt say to Pharaoh. Thus said the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born. EXODUS 4.22

And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me. EXODUS 4.23

You are the children of the Lord, your God. DEUTERONOMY 14.1

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea. Ye are the sons of the living God. HOSEA 1.10

Ahmadiyya under guidance of the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 Says:

• The Term “Son of God”

While the term “Son of God” has been used in reference to Jesus, it should be noted that God has used this title for many of His chosen ones.

For example, God, in the Old Testament refers to David: “I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’” * (Psalm 2:7)

Furthermore, in a New Testament genealogy, Adam is listed as the “Son of God” (Luke 3.38).

In fact, some may argue that Adam could have a greater claim over the “Sonship of God” because, unlike Jesus, he had neither an earthly father nor mother.

In order to reconcile these references and many others, it is not unreasonable to conclude, that the Biblical usage of the term “Son of God” does not necessarily connote a literal “sonship to God” but a metaphorical one instead.

The Nature of Jesus

This metaphorical understanding is furthered by Jesus’ own words and actions. Jesus is known to have engaged in many human devotional activities such as fasting and praying. But perhaps the most significant evidence is that Jesus claimed to lack knowledge of the future because, as he claimed, only the Father possessed perfect knowledge. (Mark 13:32).

This is especially notable since Christian doctrine holds the view that Jesus’ nature is a “hypostatic union”. That is, he was “fully divine” and “fully man” at the same time. If this were true, then he should have at no point denied his own omniscience.

These, in addition to other philosophical considerations, lead one to question the biblical term “Son of God” and its literal application to Jesus.


I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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