Posts Tagged ‘Lazarus’

Was Lazarus “a stinking corpse” or not?

October 12, 2017

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=889196#889196

Post 62: 
paarsurrey1 wrote:
Lazarus was in comma and in near-dead position, with treatment of the physician Jesus and his prayers , Lazarus was cured.
So, neither religion is wrong nor science is wrong, both support one another. Right, please?
Regards

m–co wrote:

We are re-writing the story. Lazarus was already a stinking corpse, not a man in a comma.

The non-religious reading would be that Jesus was performing some symbolic ceremony on a young man to initiate him and thus “raise him to life” metaphorically. We would still have to ignore what was written regarding the state of decay.

If one believes in God, one has no problem with a literal rising from the dead.


m–co wrote:
Lazarus was already a stinking corpse

paarsurrey1 wrote:
People get confused, unnecessarily with the exaggeration of the account written by John. The Gospels scribes are used to such exaggeration. Lazarus was not “dead” but seriously “sick”.
This event was not considered of much significance in Jesus’ time, Matthew and Mark didn’t even mention it.

It seems a later addition just to give credence to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, and that never happened.

It is an attempt to set a past example of Jesus becoming alive after having died on the Cross, and that never happened also, please.
The non-religious reading as mentioned by one is reasonable.
One-True-God does not make literal/physical dead people alive in this world. It is a set pattern of God’s deeds/works mentioned categorically:

[39:43] Allah takes away the souls of human beings at the time of their death; and during their sleep of those also that are not yet dead. And then He retains those against which He has decreed death, and sends back the others till an appointed term. In that surely are Signs for a people who reflect.

Regards

In the name of justice and love; Christianity presents a very cruel God and concept of atonement of sins, which is neither practical and rational, nor natural and logical

June 12, 2009

Marianne says:

The apostles were not dull witted. Jesus spent 3 years training them and they were very smart and prepared to do their job.

To say they were somehow stupid is an insult to their teacher Jesus.

Paarsurrey says: But this is what the Bible presents them to be.

Marianne says:

They believed in the resurrection of Lazarus, because they were there when it happened.

Paarsurrey says:

Had they believed that Jesus had given life to a physically dead Lazarus; then they would have not deserted Jesus on the Cross’ they just ran away; actions speak more than the words sometimes.

Marianne says:

Jesus died on the cross, and then he rose from the dead.

Paarsurrey says:

If Jesus was physically dead, then his friends would have not been in hurry to take him to the tomb. They believed that Jesus was near-dead, hence they hurriedly took him to the tomb for treatment.

If they had believed that he must be physically and literally dead and was to be alive from the dead, they would have kept him in the open; at least for the Jews to see Jesus perform the miracle. That never happened; and they did not expect it. They knew that Jesus was not physically dead.

Marianne says:

HE never went to India. This is a fairy tale of unbelievers.

Paarsurrey says:

The scribes did not write the gospel books to record the facts for the public. They wrote it for a specific purpose to support Paul’s weird theological philosophy.

They did not mention accounts of Jesus’ earlier life; they had no interest in it.They did not have interest in what Jesus did after he went from Galilee. Jesus seeing their poor belief; secretly went to India.

Marianne says:

Unless you accept the atonement death of Jesus on the cross, and his resurrection from the dead, your faith is wrong, and your relationship with Jesus is = 0 (zero), meaningless.

Paarsurrey says:

There is no direct relationship between sins and Jesus’ supposed death on the Cross; which never happened. Sins are forgiven from the time of Adam to today under a separate process; whether Jesus died on the Cross or did not die on the Cross.My relationship with Jesus is meaningful; I believe in the same God Allah YHWH whom Jesus also believed.

Marianne says:

Jesus came to die for our sins. If you reject this, then you reject him.

Paarsurrey says:

Sorry, I don’t agree with you. Jesus came with a message from God Allah YHWH; that is why he was a Messenger and Prophet. Sins are forgiven by God Allah YHWH. Jesus has no authority to forgive sins; it is sole discretion of God Allah YHWH; this should be clearly understood.

If a passerby in the street committs a sin; you won’t kill your son for the atonement of the passerby’s sins. It will be a most cruel thing to do.

In the name of justice and love; Christianity presents a very cruel concept of God and atonement of sins, which is neither practical and rational nor natural and logical.

I respect your faith; but this is what I sincerely belive and with logical reasons.

You are welcome to express your faith; no compulsion; but it should not be blindfaith, it should be a reason oriented faith supported by reasons and logical arguments. Blindfaith is no faith.

I love Jesus and Mary as described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Had the disciples believed in Jesus, they would have left the body of Jesus where it was delivered from the Cross? Jesus woud have got alive forthwith and before everybody’s eyes.

June 11, 2009

Eric Prothro says:

I agree to say that it was weird to say that they were courageous because prior to the death and resurrection, they were not courageous.

In fact, they (disciples) did not understand hardly anything prior to the resurrection.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend Eric

Thanks for agreeing with me that the disciples were dull in wisdom and low in understanding things in true perspective. At least Bible depicts them as people of low wisdom and low belief (Quran does not).

Nature of people and their psyche hardly changes; If as Bible says (though it is not correct) they had witnessed Jesus’ making dead Lazarus alive again; that should have made them good believers and courageous; but they never believed that Jesus would become alive after being dead. It was an afterthought or a later made up thought of clever Paul and the sinful scribes followed him.

Had they believed it; they would have not worried about the crucifixion or Jesus hurriedly being taken to the tomb for treatment? They feared about themselves too much and had no belief in the miracles of Jesus. They would have left the body of Jesus where it was delivered from the Cross. He woud have got alive forthwith and before everybody.

Why to take Jesus to Armithea’s tomb. In fact they would have asked Romans and Jews to break legs and bones of Jesus also as was done with the thiefs; Jesus would have got alive from the dead, as per Bible, even if Jesus was minced to pieces; as that would have made the miracle more marvelous and enhanced it credulity.

But they did not believe in the miracle of Lazarus; who was cured only from a near-dead position and hence they believed that Jesus could only get alive from the near dead.

They lacked courage and wisdom before the event of Crucifixion of Jesus; and their nature did not change; they remained dull in understanding and oblivious as to what was taking place inherently behind the apparent scene.

I see their eulogizing Jesus as the continuation of their dullness which took another form; nevertheless it remained with them. They remaind afar from the reality; as they were before the event of Crucifixion; and Paul allured them yet to another clever plot; and they fell into the ditch blindly.

Jesus secretly slipped away to India.

I am with innocent Jesus and innocent Mary; who were courageous in character; why should I be with the cunning Paul and the sinful scribes.

I respect your faith; yet I have to express what I believe sincerely.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

The Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, John and Luke) simply played with the teachings of Jesus and the Old Testament

May 10, 2009

Jesus of Bible is Jesus made from wax molded at whims of the Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, John and Luke)

Michelle says:

The statement of Scripture the average Jewish young man or woman was brought up on was Deut.6:4: “Hear O Israel! The LORD our God, the LORD is One”. It is in the light of this overwhelming assertion of Jewish monotheism that a claim to divinity by any Jew is to be viewed. What an astonishment it must have caused in the minds of His audience when this Jew Who came 1500 years after Moses claimed (even if indirectly) that He was of the same essence as Jehovah! Jesus, however, delighted more in calling Himself as ‘the Son of Man’ although it is John who, more than the other evangelists dared to call Him ‘the Son of God’. To be sure, the title ‘Son of Man’ carried with it the overtones of divinity although distinct from God as seen Dan. 7:13, 14. Jesus emphasized His humanity (by the use of this title) as that was more descriptive of the work He had come to complete. But we need to recognize that His work also necessitated His being God. If He had been only human, even
His human functions could not have had such eternal implications.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend michelle, miss of bombay

I think your writeup is long; please don’t mind, I would be replying it in portions.

I respect your faith.

I have to submit with all humility that to me, Jesus of Bible seems to be a helpless person in the hands of the confused and sinful evangelists. I think they carved their own Jesus from wax; they molded Jesus the way they liked and which served their own ends; having little care for Jesus or Jesus’ teachings or teachings of the Old Testament of which Jesus was a strict follower. Either they were men of poor understanding or they simply played with the teachings of Jesus and the Old Testament. Once they deserted Jesus physically as they fled away from the scene of Crucifixion; now they seem set to take revenge from Jesus’ teachings and his acts.

They were not decided about Jesus as to what he was; they were constantly in confusion, sometimes they described him Son of Man or Son of Adam, at other times they would describe him Son of God, yet another time they would say he was god. They would say he was born of Mary and hence Son of Mary; yet he was in the beginning and became flesh; and became his own father or husband of Mary. I don’t mind that; it is their insinuation or confusion; they had a right if they wanted to remain in a state of confusion.

One wonders, if they were real disciples of Jesus; as they want us to believe that Jesus was going to die only for three days and then he was going to become a living god. What need they had to run away. Were they hidden unbelievers? If they thought that Jesus was their god; what fear they should have had from the Jews or the Romans? What maximum would have happened to them in three days? At the most the Jews or the Romans would have killed them. Jesus becoming alive after three days; if he ever cared for the disciples of Bible, must have not only made them alive from the dead but must have rewarded them suitably also; like they had seen Jesus performing the miracle of making Lazarus alive from the dead, if it ever worked as per Bible.

I think they, the Evangelists doubted and never believed that Jesus had performed any such miracle or that he was going to perform now his biggest miracle of becoming himself alive from the dead.

I see the Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, John and Luke) standing in line with the Jews and not believing that Jesus showed any miracle.

Jesus of Bible admitted that the Jews won’t be shown any miracle except the sign of Jonah, if the Jews denied or Jesus did not show any miracle previously, the Evangelists deny his last Sign.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah, the Second Coming, rightly observes:

Quote
“I wonder what the Christians are so proud of! If they have a ‘God’, he is the one who died long ago and lies buried in Mohalla Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir. And if he has any miracles to his name, they are no greater than those of other Prophets, indeed Prophet Elijah showed greater miracles than he ever did. In the eyes of the Jews, Jesus (as) showed no miracles at all, and it was all deception and trickery.

This statement of the Jews is corroborated by Jesus (as) himself, for he says in the Gospels, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given unto it…” If Jesus (as) had shown miracles to the Jews, he would surely have referred to them on this occasion.”
Unquote

The sinful writers of the Gospels were not trusted disciples of Jesus; that is why Jesus left them behind and did not take them along, when he went to India along with Mary, after being saved from a cursed death on Cross by the grace and mercy of Allah. Jesus died a respectful and natural death in India, at the age of about 120 years.

This is only what we see Evangelists doing, their tricky things, in the daylight of reason and rationality.

Jesus was a great man a Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH and so were his teachings; his mother Mary was a marvelous lady as per Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran, not the mythical Jesus presented by the cunning and sinful Paul and the sinful scribes.

I respect your faith; you must be guided by your own conscience freely, this is what I believe sincerely without any intention of injuring anybody else’s feelings.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim