It is His mercy that G-d sends His Messengers

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahai-and-science.227398/#post-6411453

#18 paarsurrey

xxxxxxxx said: ↑

Of course my version of God is all knowing, all pervasive. He just doesn’t need messengers. Please stop telling me what I believe in false ways. Where are you finding such nonsense? It’s insulting.

Carry on.

“He (G-d) just doesn’t need messengers.”

I agree with one here. G-d does not need any Messengers/Prophets, it is His mercy that G-d sends His Messengers for us human beings guidance:

1. But Bahaullah did not claim in unequivocal terms to be a Messenger/Prophet of G-d in Kitab-i-Iqan – one of the most famous and core book of Bahaullah. If yes then Bahaullah’s followers to please quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
2. Moreover Bahaullah was never a Bahai. If he ever said so, then also Bahaullah’s followers to please quote from Kitab-i-Iqan in this connection, please.
3. Some Bahais believe that Bahaullah was god. If yes, then he could not claim and cannot be a truthful Messenger/Prophet , as both are distinct from one another.Right, please?
4. etc, and etc

Regards

Bahaullah’s claims in Iqan are “implied”,none is unequivocal

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-kitab-i-iqan-%E2%80%9Cbook-of-certitude%E2%80%9D.220566/page-3#post-6111585

All Bahaullah’s claims in Iqan are “implied” one’s, as I understand, none is unequivocal/straight forward. Right, please?

Regards

#39 paarsurrey

#40 Komxxx,

paarsurrey said: ↑

“I have not examined the entire text for instances of this, but I know that in certain places, Shoghi Effendi has changed the original Persian first-person singular pronouns into first-person plural pronouns in English so that it seems that Baha’u’llah is ascribing to himself a degree of divine majesty.” Unquote

I will check and verify it when I will finish going through Farsi-Iqan. It is tantamount to dishonesty on the part of Shoghi Effendi, if he did so.

I will appreciate if you elaborate further the points mentioned in your post with examples, please.

Regards

Tonxxxxxxx said: ↑

This in no way matters, as Baha’u’llah has explained that the door to the knowledge of God is closed and all knowledge reverts back to knowledge of the Manifestations.

Also, Shoghi Effendi had the authority to offer what Baha’u’llah was saying in His Message from God. Thus it means what it means.

Shoghi Effendi most likely knew what was required in the translation to impart to a western mind, the concepts given by Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

Click to expand…

“the door to the knowledge of God is closed”

#50paarsurrey, 

It is a meaningless concept. Nobody can close the door to knowledge of God as nobody has hegemony on God-Allah-YHVH, He can give knowledge to anybody and anytime .
If Bahaullah said it, it means that he found God’s door closed for knowledge for himself (Bahaullah) and his blind-faith followers. Right, please?

Regards

Shoghi Effendi wrongly translates Iqan

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-kitab-i-iqan-%E2%80%9Cbook-of-certitude%E2%80%9D.220566/page-2#post-6106427

#30paarsurrey

Komxxx said: ↑

Yes, Shoghi Effendi is well-known among critics of the Baha’i Faith for his translation trickery.

I am now at page 53 of Kitab-i-Iqan-Farsi.

At passage # 76 is written:

“Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his Creator.”

There are no words in Farsi-Iqan which have been translated by Shoghi Effendi as “between man and his Creator.”
Further, “Knowledge is the most grievous veil” is neither a verse of Quran nor it is Hadith. Right, please?

Regards

OOO

 

Holy War -the peaceful version- with reasons, arguments and peaceful dialogue

The News:

One will, perhaps, love to read the following:

“Holy War”: Is it Armageddon? with its ” Peaceful Version”! 1

“Holy War”: Is it Armegiddon / Armageddon? – with its “Peaceful Version”! 1 | paarsurrey (wordpress.com)

One will be taken aback to note that Armegiddon/Armageddon is nothing like as one would have imagined or known so far. It is not to be fought with any physical and destructive weaponry and or the lethal arsenal of the day. It is peaceful and in fact, I understand, it has already started and it is sown like a seed!

It was a debate between the Pauline-Christianity (represented by Mr. Abdullah Atham) and the Second Coming 1835-1908 , that took place in Urdu language and was published then by the name “Jang-e-Muqaddas” in 1893 ( 22 May 1893 to 5 June 1893) in the then British India and has been recently translated and published in English by the name “The Holy War”:

The Holy War — A DEBATE BETWEEN ISLAM & CHRISTIANITY — Jang-e-Muqaddas (alislam.org)

Right?

From: a peaceful Ahmadiyya Muslim

OOO  

These are the days of Armageddon – the final battle between good and evil –The peaceful Version! 3

Has Armageddon already started with the advent of Second Coming 1835-1908 ?– The peaceful Version! 2

References to the quotes in Iqan must be provided

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-gawhar-khanum.220335/page-5#post-6099973

Tony Bristow-Stagg said: ↑

The station of the Quran in the Baha’i Writings is well documented.

As to the rest of the post, that is the same accusation that a Jew or Christain would use about MUhammad and the Quran and Biblical references.

What you need to consider paarsurry is that the Kitab-i-iqan warns us of this. That all the proofs we bring up to reject a Messenger of God, is but a return of the rejections used by all people in the past to refute all Messengers.

Some of the most learned Muslim Divine in the time of Baha’u’llah could not refute His knowledge. Every time they tried, Baha’u’llah would guide them to more scriptures to show thay had not fully considered what they offered as a rejection. They could never find fault in that knowledge. This is why they resorted to persecution and banishment.

That we have trouble finding these references is only indicative of the effort that those who persecuted Baha’u’llah have used to eliminate any trace of the good that has come from Baha’u’llah. The time is not far away, when all those hopes they had of extinguishing the cause, will backfire and the resulting explosion of knowledge that results will vindicate all that Baha’u’llah has offered.

The effort would be better spent looking for those references now, rather than saying they were wrong or did not exist.

Regards Tony

Click to expand…

“The effort would be better spent looking for those references now, rather than saying they were wrong or did not exist.”

#99paarsurrey

That effort must have been made by the followers of Bahaullah, now it should be more easy. The books have been published and most if not all, I understand, are available even online. The references of all such Shia/Islam Ahadith/Narrations should be provided in the Arabic text. Now more than a century has passed, yet it has not been done. How much time Bahaullah’s followers want to take while they say Iqan is their core religious book?

I also understand that in the first hand-written or dictated Iqan had many mistakes even in the Quranic verses quoted and Bahaullah had to correct these later.

Regards

 

The technique of “All is fair in love and sales ” of Bahaullah

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/was-jesus-crucified-or-not.217361/page-11#post-6085402

CGDixxxxx said: ↑

So, even though none of the writers were there, they know for sure Jesus was born of a Virgin and that there was a star that guided the Magi. They know for a fact Jesus turned water into wine and walked on water. They know for a fact that he healed people of leprosy and blindness of other infirmities. They know, because they could very well have witnessed it, that Jesus was crucified. They know, because many did witness it, that Jesus showed himself to be alive after being crucified.

Or, only the Virgin Birth, which is not a supernatural or extraordinary phenomenon? and the crucifixion are true and consistent with known history. So the writers didn’t make those two events up, but they did make up all the other things about Jesus? But, when they told of people being raised from the dead and the blind receiving sight and that Jesus walked on water and was resurrected from the dead… those stories, although they never happened, the writers made them up to tell a “symbolic” message?

But what is the Christian explanation of why Jesus had to die on the cross? Baha’is want nothing to do with that, because the Christian writers say it was to pay for the sins of all humanity. No one else could do it. It had to be a perfect sacrifice, and only Jesus could be that special person. They go on to say how he conquered death and the devil and all the rest. The rest of the things that Christians believe that the NT writers teach is ignored and has to be ignored by Baha’is, because it makes Jesus the only one who could of paid the price to save humanity from the devil and hell. None of which Baha’is believe is true.

So then, what’s the big deal that Baha’is believe the Virgin Birth and the Crucifixion of Jesus? They reject pretty much everything else about what the NT claims to have happened. If the Baha’i Faith is true, then nothing is really all that important about the story of Jesus… no hell, no devil, no resurrection, he didn’t walk on water and all the rest. It’s just an elaborate, embellished story about a person his followers made into a God/man. Or, it’s all true and we need Jesus to be saved. Although I disagree with some of the Baha’i explanations, I’d rather have them be right than the Christians. But my favorite is still reincarnation. I know I can do better next time. All I need is a few more chances at getting it right.

“So then, what’s the big deal that Baha’is believe the Virgin Birth and the Crucifixion of Jesus? They reject pretty much everything else about what the NT claims to have happened.” Unquote.

#203 paarsurrey
Don’t worry, please.
It is simple the technique of “All is fair in love and sales ” of Bahaullah. At one hand he agrees with the Christianity and on the other he sells his own God-Head, Manifestation of God and Bahaullah’s being Second-Coming of Jesus.
This is my understanding when I am reading Kitab-i-Iqan, the so called “The Book of Certitude” of Bahaullah.

Regards

Did Bahaullah renounce Islam and convert to no-religion?

Blog Post # 2224

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/was-bahaullah-a-bahai-please.220052/page-3#post-6077751

lxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx said: ↑

He became a Bábí.

#45  paarsurrey

Last edited: Yesterday at 1:57 PM

I understand that Bab was Shayki /Esoteric/Mysticism Twelver Shia Muslim and Bahaullah became his follower.
In that case the question remains to be answered, when did Bahaullah renounce Muslim and convert to no-religion, please?

Regards

lxxxxxxxxx said: ↑

Baha’u’llah was a Muslim until He became a Bábí. He always had a religion. All His Life He was a believer in God and religion.

#50 paarsurrey

Bab did not renounce Islam, there  is a friend in the Forum who is a Babi, but he is a strong Muslim. I understand Bab used to pray/formal-Salat as other Shia-Muslim use to do, Bab did not renounce Islam, believed both parts of the Kalima (1.Oneness of God and 2.prophet-hood of Muhammad ).
It means that Bahaullah remained a no-religion man

1. between the period , he left religion-Islam in the pre-Iqan period and the Iqan-period.
2. Till his followers announced Bahaullah to be follower of Bahaism in the post-Iqan period, please.

Regards

lxxxxxxxxxxxx said: ↑

Why would the Bab renounce Islam as He claimed to be the Promised One of Islam. Baha’u’llah became a follower of the Bab and always had a religion.

#57 paarsurrey

It is important to know:

1. When one joins Islam one openly with his words recites Kalima (1. Acknowledges Oneness of God and 2.prophet-hood of Muhammad) and starts offering prayers etc. and doing the religious actions like Salat as told in Quran and done by Muhammad.
2. In other words when did Bab and or Bahuallah cease to pray Salat like they used to do as Shia-Twelver-Muslims do or the Sunni-Muslims do.

It is the same question in other words, please.

Regards

OOO

Holy War -the peaceful version- with reasons, arguments and peaceful dialogue

The News:

One will, perhaps, love to read the following:

“Holy War”: Is it Armageddon? with its ” Peaceful Version”! 1

“Holy War”: Is it Armegiddon / Armageddon? – with its “Peaceful Version”! 1 | paarsurrey (wordpress.com)

One will be taken aback to note that Armegiddon/Armageddon is nothing like as one would have imagined or known so far. It is not to be fought with any physical and destructive weaponry and or the lethal arsenal of the day. It is peaceful and in fact, I understand, it has already started and it is sown like a seed!

It was a debate between the Pauline-Christianity (represented by Mr. Abdullah Atham) and the Second Coming 1835-1908 , that took place in Urdu language and was published then by the name “Jang-e-Muqaddas” in 1893 ( 22 May 1893 to 5 June 1893) in the then British India and has been recently translated and published in English by the name “The Holy War”:

The Holy War — A DEBATE BETWEEN ISLAM & CHRISTIANITY — Jang-e-Muqaddas (alislam.org)

Right?

From: a peaceful Ahmadiyya Muslim

OOO  

These are the days of Armageddon – the final battle between good and evil –The peaceful Version! 3

Has Armageddon already started with the advent of Second Coming 1835-1908 ?– The peaceful Version! 2

Was Bahaullah a “Bahai”, please?

#1 paarsurrey,

Was Bahaullah a “Bahai”, please?
Bahaullah was sure not a “Bahai” as per the core book of Bahaullah named by him as “Kitab-i-Iqan”.

Jesus was not a “Christian”, he was a Jew, he was “Baptized” posthumously as virtually being a follower of a new religion “Christianity” by Paul/Church and or the associates.
Thread open to all religions or no-religions.

Regards
___________

68. BAHÁ’U’LLÁH’S REVERENCE FOR THE QUR’ÁN

” It should come as no surprise that Bahá’u’lláh’s respect for the Qur’an was heartfelt and genuine. Bahá’u’lláh was, after all, a Muslim.”
CHRISTOPHER BUCK
Visiting Assistant Professor, Michigan State University, buckc@msu.eduKALIMÁT PRESSLOS ANGELES
Symbol & Secret: Qur’an Commentary in Baha’u’llah’s Kitab-i Iqan (1995/2004)

 

 

“Love and Sales”: Bahaullah and “Iqan”

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-8#post-6075137

Txxxxxxxxxxxxx said: ↑

Your choice paarsurrey.

Many muslim divines also made a choice to accept the Bab and Baha’u’llah with their lives. Personally I agree with them and long to be in the company of such devoted and pure souls.

Regards Tony

#145 paarsurrey

Well that is everybody’s birth-right, whether a divine or not a divine, with reason or without reason. The pertinent question here is whether Kitab-i-Iqan was revealed in the sense Quran was revealed to Muhammad?

Muhammad kept Word of Revelation from G-d (Quran) separate from his own conversation with his companions and instructions to them .

Muhammad forbade Muslims to write anything from him , other than Quran, as long as Quran was being revealed so that it is not mixed up. It was for this that Hadith was written 250/300 years after him.

It is not of much significance that Iqan was written/dictated by Bahaullah in a night , or in a day and a night, or within two days or so. The substance or its contents is/are important which Bahaullah did not in an unequivocal manner claim ,in Iqan, was revealed on him from G-d.

In the sense Quran was revealed on Muhammad; Iqan was not, emphatically not, revealed on Baha’ullah from G-d. Quran is authored by G-d but Iqan is not authored by G-d.
The contents of Iqan also suggest that Bahaullah simply employed the “all’s fair in love and sales”*technique and the contents are not meaningful enough otherwise.

Regards

*#1 siti

Bahaullah has revealed! (3)

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-8#post-6074353

#142paarsurrey

Vxxxxxxxx said: ↑

It seems to me that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s claims to be the next Messiah are just as valid, if not moreso than Baha’u’llah’s claims, yet we don’t see Paarsurrey quoting excessively or constantly proclaiming his greatness. Makes one wonder why.

 

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s all claims are within Islam/Quran/Muhammad, he started no new Religion while Bahaullah’s claims are outside of Islam/Quran/Muhammad, he started a new Religion, as his followers claim about it, yet he provided no name for it.
But we are discussing here that Bahaullah did not in a clear-cut manner claim in Iqan that Iqan was a Word of Revelation from G-d, he just wrote it as any human being would write and yet not claim that its contents have been revealed from G-d. Iqan is a brain-child of Bahaullah, not from G-d. Right, please?

Regards

Bahaullah has revealed! (2)

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bahaullah-has-revealed.219327/page-3#post-6061028

Post #56 paarsurrey, wrote:

I quote from Iqan:
“This station is also one of the signs of the Day of Revelation; even as it is said: “The abased amongst you, He shall exalt; and they that are exalted, He shall abase.” And likewise, He hath revealed in the Qur’án: “And We desire to show favour to those who were brought low in the land, and to make them spiritual leaders among men, and to make of them Our heirs.” 21 It hath been witnessed in this day how many of the divines, owing to their rejection of the Truth, have fallen into, and abide within, the uttermost depths of ignorance, and whose names have been effaced from the scroll of the glorious and learned. And how many of the ignorant who, by reason of their acceptance of the Faith, have soared aloft and attained the high summit of knowledge, and whose names have been inscribed by the Pen of Power upon the Tablet of divine Knowledge. Thus,“What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the Source of Revelation.” 22 Therefore, it hath been said: “To seek evidence, when the Proof hath been established is but an unseemly act, and to be busied with the pursuit of knowledge when the Object of all learning hath been attained is truly blameworthy.” Say O people of the earth! Behold this flamelike Youth that speedeth across the limitless profound of the Spirit, heralding unto you the tidings: “Lo: the Lamp of God is shining,” and summoning you to heed His Cause which, though hidden beneath the veils of ancient splendour, shineth in the land of ‘Iráq above the day-spring of eternal holiness.” Unquote
Bahá’í Reference Library – The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

The hint number 22* gives reference of verse of Qur’án 13:41, which is incorrect. The Quran correct verse of Quran is 13:39:
AYAH ar-Ra`d 13:39 يَمْحُو اللَّهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ

Sher Ali Translation:
“ALLAH effaces and establishes what HE wills, and with HIM is the source of all commandments.”
ar-Ra`d 13:39
This needs to be corrected.

Regards
______________
*It is hint #111 , Qur’án 13:41. ↩ in another English translation of Iqan by Shoghi Effendi.

OOOOOOOOOOO

Also please read the following posts:

#57,#58,