Posts Tagged ‘John’

“JESUS DID NOT DIE WHILST ON THE CROSS”

February 12, 2010

Courtesy: richarddawkins discussion forum; I give hereunder a good post on the above topic.

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=109343

Postby oombuddah » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:26 pm
Christians:

It makes sense because Jesus was only put on for a few hours! Even Josephus’ best mate survived the cross after days and days.

To worry your position even more, there is a scholarly work which shows that people would die between 3-7 days on hanging on the cross.

There is an evolution of the descriptions of torture, it looks like the latests gospels try to intensify the others.
Jesus was fed antiseptic.

Jesus was annointed with healing herbs.
No one knows the cause of his death – not even the doctors, but it is obvious that there is no cause of his death because if you look at it from a scientific viewpoint, it is in fact very unlikely that he did die in the first place.

Sure, they all agree he died but on what basis? They are looking at the evangelized accounts of his “scourging”.
Jesus was put into a roomy tomb where he can breathe.
Gosp. of John SPEAR THRUST – Raymond Brown said it was an insertion to prove docetists wrong. Biblical scholars agree that this spear thrust is extremely unlikely and UNHISTORICAL.
Jesus cried to be saved from death. God heard him.

They were professional executioners, but they aren’t always right – they are not scientists like today, try going to the point of drowning, you are unconscious for so long – it’s quite a similar phenomenon in a few ways. You are assumed dead.

Remember what happened to Paul? So many people thought he was dead, not just 2 or 3. But he got up and walked away.
It is so clear that if you analyse the science, Jesus did not die on the cross.

Pliny the Elder even had a big ass moan in his works saying that it is hard to determine when someone is actually dead or not!
Doctors who have said that Jesus died on the cross had took every single account in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John literally – Just remember that.

You would be assuming that Jesus had died on the cross. Its nothing more than an assumption. Christians know that.
They base their salvation on something which is assumed to be a miracle. They are doing half the miracle by assuming it’s a miracle.
We all know, there’s no point of me even reiterating this but hey, antiseptics have such an effect, that it can cause one to swoon.

As for guards at the tomb:

how do we know they were there? No one was there to witness the guards at the tomb – Dr. William Lane Craig and other top Christian scholars agree that the guards at the tomb are “Probably Not Historical” and could have come about from shouting matches in the form of oral traditions (to try and disprove the idea that Jesus got up and walked away with his normal body) which were then put in the gospels.

Raymond Brown, one of the top Christian scholar of our present time believes that Jesus appeared once to the disciples in which he said NOTHING. Then vanished.

There’s two ways of approaching this issue naturalistically:

1. Jesus appeared to the disciples in his human form, he disguised himself so he doesn’t get caught by the Jews, the disciples doubted it was Jesus whom they saw – the gospels attest to this idea (to back my point up).

2. Visions of Jesus – either naturalistic visions or visions granted by God – which is supported in Islamic tradition.

The thing about visionary appearances is that visions can be seen, felt and spoken too, even hugged. They can be viewed by masses of people. For example, Virgin Mary. Dr. Bart Ehrman argues in a recent debate that the resurrection appearances are visions.

Type this in on Youtube:

Virgin Mary appears to +500,000 people in Egypt!!

So appearances to the 11 really doesn’t mean anything much when Mary appears to 000’s
Did she really appear? I don’t think so, but they are adamant that she did.

Doesn’t the visionary body seem exactly the same as a resurrected body to you? I should think so.

I would also like to ask you, don’t you think Pilate would want to spare Jesus? Don’t you think the Roman centurions would seriously want to spare Jesus?

So here you are, the resurrection is disputed and surprisingly can be explained away very credibly, naturalistically.

You would need to prove that he died in the first place which is a total assumption.

How can the disciples tell a resurrected body and a visionary body which can be seen, touched, spoken to and hugged? They haven’t seen anything of a ‘resurrected nature’ before, so even if they did give firm testimony of the type of resurrection that some Christians try to prove (bodily), is this firm testimony really accurate? Of course not , only by assumption is it accurate. To assume a miracle is to assume salvation.

Look at the description of Jesus’ beating, and compare that to the other gospels (by the way, top christian and non christian scholars agree that Mark is a source of Matthew and Luke, and that Matthew and Luke evangelize and also just add extra info on Mark). The description of the beatings in Luke and Matthew are far greater than the descriptions of the beatings in Mark.
Jesus’ legs were not broken – a method done to ensure a quick death AND to ensure that if people are put into a tomb, they don’t ESCAPE!

Pilate was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED and DOUBTED when he heard Jesus had died SO EARLY. The centurion went to check and looked at him – he didn’t know for sure obviously, but he said that he died.

(I am an Ex-Christian Convert to Islam, I have tried my best to minimize bias towards my particular belief – Jesus swooned). But it makes sense naturalistically right?

Dr. Richard Carrier believes that the resurrection appearances was based on an assumption from looking at Isaiah 53.
Even if Jesus was to remain alive, because they saw him, they would assume he resurrected from the dead anyway lol

Isaiah 53 Suffering servant = ISRAEL! NOT JESUS!

“Word become flesh”- a wrong notion of Catholics Protestants if taken literally

February 10, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/03/16/jesus-is-no-savior-of-christians-if-he-couldnt-save-himself-death-on-cross/#comment-912

somethingcrazy Says:

If you want to see that Jesus created, then just check out the first verses of John’s gospel:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning”

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend somethingcrazy

I thank you for participating in the discussion.
Please go through the passages quoted by you again. I don’t see Jesus’ name mentioned in them; if I have missed please underline Jesus’ name in them.

I think it is only a guess of the Catholics Protestants that Jesus’ name has been literally mentioned there; maybe it is just another phenomenon, which John, only a human being wrongly took up like that; nevertheless it is not binding on others to subscribe to John’s mistakes or his wrong views or concepts.

I think it is a mistake of our Christian friends to make Jesus a god; like our Hindu friends have made Krishna a god, in my opinion.
But for Paul; Jesus truthful followers would have never taken Jesus to be a god. Matthew, Marks and Luke did not mention that Word has become flesh.

You might have spoken many words in your life. Did you ever see that any of your Word has become flesh? Your Word would have never even smelt like flesh. It is your tongue and lips and your throat made of flesh that help one to make words, and of course the teeth made of bones, which helps to make the words. The reverse phenomenon never happens, in my opinion.

It is just a mistake of John, or those who wrote for John that they thought otherwise, in my opinion.

Jesus never thought like this; how could he had claimed to be god when he knew that he literally created no new Sun, no new Moon and no new Earth. It is only an accusation of Catholics Protestants against Jesus that Jesus claimed to be literally god.

Jesus could have asserted himself for his claims and reasons more clearly and in a straightforward manner. Whom Jesus as a god had to fear about? Jesus needed no self-appointed spokesmen like Paul or Church, in my opinion. Since Jesus was not god so he did not claim it unequivocally.

I love Jesus for his wisdom. Jesus feared nobody except God Allah YHWH whose humble servant Jesus was, in my opinion.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

No infallible historicity of the Catholic Protestant Scriptures

January 24, 2010

Aaron wrote:

I invite you to love the Jesus of history, the true Promised Messiah, as recorded in Scripture.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend Aaron

There is no infallible historicity of the Catholic Protestant Scriptures. Jesus lived up to the age of 120 years. The Catholic Protestant Scriptures give only 3 years of Jesus life in Judea and that only for a specific purpose which makes it a biased resource; one could simply judge the historicity of the scripture from it.

There is hardly any account of Jesus life before three years of his childhood and what he did before the age of 27 years in Egypt or elsewhere in the Catholic Protestant Scriptures.

When Jesus made good his escape to India from a cursed death in consequence of Jews putting him on the Cross; the Catholic Protestant Scriptures fail to record accounts of Jesus’ life in India and the neighboring countries.

Even these three years accounts of Jesus life in Judea have contradicting reports of the events.

For instance I just take one:

Matthew records that all the disciple of Jesus had fled away from the scene of the Cross and they deserted Jesus.

John says that a beloved disciple of Jesus was there and Jesus asked him to take care of his mother deserted Jesus Mary; the other Gospels don’t record it. Even John mentions it in third person; why should he be ashamed of mentioning his name in the first person if he was there; he was simply not there.

It is only a wishful thinking of the Catholic Protestant that their scriptures have any infallible historicity. No; that is not true.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks and regards

Punishment for claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses

January 22, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/#comments

Aaron Says:

You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend Aaron

Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.
Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.
Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?
Perhaps that answers your question also.

Aaron Says:

Hi,

It sounds like you want it both ways. You did not quote Matthew’s Gospel about the charge Jesus was condemned: blasphemy (an example of Jesus’ claim to divine authority). But you reference Matthew’s Gospel about Jonah. I think philosophers call what you are doing the fallacy of “manufacturing facts from a theory” and/or “special pleading”. You are rewriting the New Testament to fit your procrustean bed.
Would you please explain why you don’t believe Jesus was condemned for blasphemy as it is recorded in Matthew 26:65 and why you believe Matthew 12:39-41? From Matthew’s Gospel, can you tell me what texts of the Old Testament Jesus used in His response to the High Priest (Matthew 26:64)?
Jesus’ death, resurrection, and empty tomb is good news for all who believe. Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24).
Regards,
Aaron

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends Aaron

I think I had already elaborated my position regarding gospels in my previous post:

Quote: “Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.” Unquote.

If Jesus never attempted to write any gospels in Judea; how could I dare write it? It was cunning Paul and the clever Church who got hold of anonymous writings and for their own motives and after editing and naming arbitrarily, presented it as Gospels. Jesus had nothing to do with this plethora of writings. He never authorized or dictated anybody to publish this stuff in his absence when he was alive and living happily in India.

I was waiting for you response to mention punishment of claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses. Would you please respond?
May the Creator- God Allah YHWH bless you! And may He open your heart for acceptance of truth.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

The sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god?

January 22, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/

Aaron Says:

You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?

Paarsurrey says:

Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.

Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.

Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?

Perhaps that answers your question also.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

John never witnessed Jesus’ Crucifixion

January 16, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4657&p=90570#p90570
Quran, 4:157

Eagle wrote:

Your gospels are unambiguous to the fact ALL disciples fled when Jesus got arrested and Peter’s fear of arrest caused him to repeatedly deny that he even knew Jesus.

ThereIs1Adonai wrote:

John was that disciple and he is the one who leaned on Jesus’ chest at the last supper. He writes this of himself.

Eagle wrote:

There is absolutely no proof that the unnamed disciple mentioned by John’s Gospel’s writer (mentioned in the 3rd person by the way, why would John mention himself in the 3rd person?) in Jn19:25-27 is John the son of Zebedee. That traditional interpretation is still a matter of dispute among scholars. Also, the other gospels don’t mention a “disciple whom Jesus loved”. They also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross, not to mention that execution sites were guarded by Romans and surely wouldn’t allow anyone near.
That unknown and unnamed disciple you are referring to could be the author of John’s Gospel as it seems from Jn21:24.

Skenderbeg wrote:

Can you Muslims tell me then who was supposed to write it down for us to know?

Eagle wrote:

Jesus had very little followers in his lifetime.

Can your bible scholars say for sure who wrote the gospels attributed to Mark, John, Luke, Matthew? as 4:157-8 says, Jesus’ enemies claimed to have killed him, others that they crucified him and this grew into a legend which crept into those books whose authorship is questioned by modern scholarship.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

Very scholarly and truthful comments by Eagle; I agree with him.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Bible.

Thanks

Gospels were written by anonymous writers

January 10, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/was-joseph-smith-junior-a-messengerprophet-of-jesus-and-not-of-god-allah-yhwh/#comment-844

ditchu says:

The bible was written by those inspired by God

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend ditchu

The Gospels were written by anonymous writers and only given names Matthew, Marks, John etc, to provide credence to them. How could you say they were inspired people? They wrote things of which they were not a first hand witness. Is hearsay an inspiration? Please don’t mind; we are discussing to know the truth. I respect your faith.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

No fake witnessing of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul was needed by Jesus

June 3, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

I quote from John 8:19.

John 8:
16 And if I do judge, my judgment is true: because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that give testimony of myself: and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me. 19 They said therefore to him: Where is thy Father? Jesus answered: Neither me do you know, nor my Father: if you did know me, perhaps you would know my Father also.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50008.htm

The sinful scribes or the Church as depicted by Bible; did follow the Jews, instead of following Jesus. Jesus maintained that he needed no witnessing for his truthfulness.

God Allah YHWH was sufficient for his witnessing that Jesus was a Messenger of God; sent by God Allah YHWH with a message.

Moses did not need a witnessing of men; Noah did not need a witnessing of men; Jonah did not need a witnessing of men. All these persons Moses, Noah, Jonah and Jesus were to judge the people; they were not to be judged by them.

When people denied them, the Messengers; they were punished by God Allah YHWH; one should read what happened to the people to whom Noah was sent; when they denied the Message of Noah, they all got drowned.

So, only witnessing of Allah and his Messenger is sufficient; no fake witnessing of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was needed by Jesus.

Peace; I respect your faith; you are free to believe whatever you are convinced with.

I love Jesus and Mary as described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

“I believe the Bible, you believe the Quran.”- Len Nederlof

May 26, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend Len Nederlof

It is good that you don’t believe in Paul but you believe in Jesus. Now, the question is; what revealed book did Jesus read? He used to read and follow Torah of Moses.

Jesus never founded any church. Jesus never read the Gospels written by sinful Matthew, sinful Mark, sinful John and sinful Luke. These never existed in his time.

I think you are a straightforward friend; so logically, if you are a follower of Jesus, you should not believe what has been written by the above named sinful scribes or the cunning Paul; they deserted Jesus and that is sufficient for their having no credulity.

I love Jesus and Mary as described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

I give hereunder the e-mail sent to me by my friend Nederlof, to share it with the viewers of this blog.

Len Nederlof says:

Hello Paarsurrey … You and I are both ‘believers’ but we believe different accounts, I believe the Bible, you believe the Quran.

1. Josephus, in addition to the Biblical authors, and others have adequately documented the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus as a historical fact.

2. Since Adam sinned against God all of mankind is born into sin and needs a Savior in order to restore a relationship with God. That Savior was promised by God to Eve and later confirmed by the prophet Isaiah and He is Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah. Since the penalty for sin is death, ‘death’ had to be defeated, and so Jesus ‘died’ as an atonement for the sins of mankind so that men and women who believed in that atonement would regain a relationship with God now and into eternity. The apostle Peter said, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off – for all whom the Lord our God will call.” – Acts 2:38-39

3. Jesus did not commit suicide. He allowed himself to be killed (as prophesied) as an atonement for the sins of mankind. The apostle John said, “For God so loved the world that He gave (GAVE) His one and only Son, (Jesus of Nazareth) that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send (SEND) His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save (SAVE) the world (you and me) through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son (Jesus of Nazareth).” – John 3:16-18

These things are not a question of reasonable and logical arguments. They are spiritual matters and they are spiritually discerned. I am a Christian, a Jesus follower, not a Paul follower like so many others who call themselves Christian.

Who do you follow? Who do you believe? You say you love Mary and Jesus. Why? Why do you bother to believe anything. You can’t prove that what you believe is correct. You, too, depend on the writing of other men.

I suspect that you are a very learned man; you are a scholar and know many things. Since I have accepted Jesus into my heart and life the Holy Spirit confirms to me that what I believe is the truth. “But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” – John 3:21

May the Lord bless you and keep you!

3. 3. Jesus did not commit suicide. He allowed himself to be killed in order to be the atonement mankind needed for salvation. He gave up His life willingly because that was what was needed

On 18-May-09, at 6:55 AM, Paar Surrey wrote:

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/there-is-little-historicity-in-the-bible-as-mostly-it-consists-of-fables-and-stories-written-mythically/

Jesus of Bible had made a promise that some people would continue to live till his return; among these he had named John

May 20, 2009

Wdednh says:

Now, according to ALL holly writings from ALL holly books; when MESSIAH comes, it’s the end and the new start for the world. Now either I’m blind or truly isolated for i have not seen
a new world or even the end of the old one. Please explain and shine
your truth on my ignorance. Any way here it is the statement that
really got me confused.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend wdednh

You don’t have to get confused. The Bible scribes were sinful persons; which is evident from their deserting Jesus alone crying on the Cross. Their writings were not holy and cannot be holy. They often misunderstood the things, exaggerated and most of the times they did not see the things in true and real perspective. Jesus’ second coming was totally misconceived by them.

I think you would like to know something from the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 in this connection.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says:

And among the testimonies of the gospel which have reached us is the verse of Matthew, namely: ‘Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.’17 Likewise, the verse in John: ‘Jesus saith unto him, if I will that he (i.e., the disciple, John) tarry (i.e., in Jerusalem) till I come.’18 This means: ‘If I will, John will not die till I come again’.

These verses show with great clarity that Jesus (peace be on him) had made a promise that some people would continue to live till his return; among these he had named John. So the fulfillment of this promise was inevitable.

Accordingly, even Christians have admitted that in order that the prophecy may be taken to have been fulfilled, Jesus’ coming at a time when some of the people of that age were still alive was inevitable, so that the prophecy should have been fulfilled according to its promise.

This is the basis of the clergyman’s declaration that Jesus, in accordance with his promise, had come to Jerusalem at the time of its destruction and that John had seen him, as he was alive at that time. But let it be noted that Christians do not say that Jesus really came down from heaven accompanied by appointed signs; they rather say that he appeared to John as in a vision, that he might fulfill his prophecy contained in verse 28 of chapter 16 of Matthew.

But I say that coming of this kind does not fulfill the prophecy. That is a very weak interpretation which only avoids with difficulty the criticism leveled against this position.

This interpretation is patently untenable and wrong, so much so, that there is no need to refute it, for if Jesus had to appear to anyone in a dream or a vision, a prophecy of this kind would be ridiculous.19 In such manner Jesus had also appeared to Paul long before this.

It appears that the prophecy contained in verse 28 of chapter 16 of Matthew has caused a panic among the padres and they have not been able to give it a rational meaning in accordance with their own beliefs, for it was difficult for them to say that Jesus at the time of the sacking of Jerusalem had descended from heaven in glory, and that like the lightning that lights up all heaven and is seen by everybody, all had seen him; and also it was not easy for them to ignore the statement, namely: Some of those who were standing here will not taste death till they have seen the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.

Therefore, as a result of a labored interpretation they believed in the fulfillment of the prophecy in the shape of a vision. But this is not true; righteous servants of God always appear in visions to the elect and for a vision it is not even necessary that they should appear only in a dream; nay, they can be seen even in the waking state; I myself have experienced such phenomena.

I have seen Jesus (on whom be peace) many a time in Kashf (vision in the waking state), and I have met some of the prophets, while fully awake; I have also seen our Chief, Master and Leader, the Prophet Muhammad (may peace and the blessings of God be upon him) many a time in the waking state, and I have talked to him — in such a clear state of waking that sleep or drowsiness had nothing to do with it. I have also met some of the dead at their graves or other places, while awake; and have talked to them.

I very well know that such meeting with the dead in the waking state is possible; not only can we meet; we can also talk, and even have a handshake. Between this and the ordinary state of waking there is not difference in such an experience; one realizes that one is in this very world; one has the same ears, the same eyes, and the same tongue; but deeper reflection reveals a different universe.

The world has no realization of this sort of experience, for the world lives a life of indifference. This experience is a gift from heaven; it is for those who are endowed with new senses.

This is a fact — actual and true. Therefore, when Jesus appeared to John after the destruction of Jerusalem, though he was seen by the latter in the waking state, and though there may have been some talk and a hand-shake, nevertheless, the incident has nothing to do with the prophecy.

Such phenomena often happen in the world; and even now, if I devote some attention to it, I can, with the grace of God, in the waking state, see Jesus or some other holy prophet. Such a meeting does not fulfill the prophecy (contained in Matthew, chapter 16, verse 28).

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

So, the interpretation of the sinful scribes about Second Coming of Jesus is wrong. The interpretation of Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is correct and has been fulfilled in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in the Quran.

Thanks