Posts Tagged ‘inclusivists’

I don’t debate to win or lose

January 15, 2014

If one debates to win; I declare him the winner beforehand and say to him “now let us discuss on the topic”.

I am an ordinary man in the street. I have no claims to piety or any scholarship. I have my own life, I am not impressed by others. Be they experts, scholars, scientists or whatever. I do respect them but I don’t have to follow them.

I have my own right to live and find my way to the Truth.

I certainly have a position which has reached me naturally. I do defend it, but I am open to accept other’s opinions if I am myself convinced that they are right. If others mock at me or ridicule me; I take it as if they have no further reasonable argument to offer and hence they have resorted to ridicule.

I don’t debate; if I see that the discussion is leading to a debate; I withdraw myself from it. This becomes obvious when in a discussion with a group only one person is left to discuss.
I don’t feel that I am under any compulsion to convince others to my side.

Such a position arose when I wrote to discuss on the topic “Did Jews Borrow Greek Myths: 3 examples” at Triangulations:

I believe that core teachings of every revealed religion has always been the same. Belief in the oneness of the One-True-God; and no belief in any other God/s; believing in the truthfulness of the messenger prophet of the time from God and obeying the prophet of the time in the path for reaching to the One-True-God. This is the core of every religion, whatever the name of religion at a certain point in time.
This position has been termed by a fellow blogger as “an all-inclusive” or being one from the “Inclusivists” as against the “Exclusivists”.

I still maintain my position and would have continued with that; but the discussion turned towards “the preservation of Quran and as to how it was collected”. I have written many posts on this topic in my blog before and also on other discussion forums and restating it on the “triangulation” blog would have been off-topic; considering it as derailment from the topic.

I would therefore request all the friends on the Triangulations; be they Atheists or Theists to Google “Paarsurrey: collection ,compilation and preservation of Quran”; they will get enough stuff to help them understand my point of view on it.

From another angle; I am also going to discuss it in one or more of my future posts in my blog; they can join to benefit from it.

No debate please. If one is eager to debate with me just to win; I declare him the winner before hand; now let us discuss it all.


Religions of Krishna or Buddha are also included in the concept of the Truthful Religion

January 9, 2014

Glimpses of discussion with Atheists; please, click the following link for original discussion:
Topic “Did Jews Borrow Greek Myths: 3 examples”


01/09/2014 at 3:44 pm
Quoting the words of Takis Konstantopoulos
01/09/2014 at 12:06 pm
“Do you mean to say that the gods of all monotheistic religions (Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam–maybe there are more, I don’t know) are identical?”

Whichever the revealed religion is and in whatever part of the world it is located; I mean all of them.
Religions of Krishna or Buddha are also included in the concept of the Truthful Religion.

Takis Konstantopoulos
01/09/2014 at 3:57 pm
You are welcome. Thanks for replying. Unfortunately, I don’t understand what you are saying. Is it true then that Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma, Apollo and Yahweh are identical?

Sabio Lantz
01/09/2014 at 4:05 pm
@ Takis (& paarsurrey),
paarsurrey is a theist (albeit a broadly inclusivist sort) who is talking to a bunch of atheists (most of my readers) as if we believe in a theistic god and we don’t. I think his form of Islam believes that all other religions but his religion has corrupt scripture (actually, this is orthodox Islam too), but he is willing to say the original teachings of the ‘great religions’ is true but now corrupt. That way they can pretend to be inclusive, but they really aren’t. A very tricky more, in my book. But either way, us atheists don’t find any traction in any of the theist arguments: inclusivists, pseudo-inclusivists, or exclusivists. I would like to see paarsurrey talk to us as if he recognizes our beliefs — whether he disagrees or not.

01/09/2014 at 4:05 pm
The original revelation on Krishna could be entirely different from what people now believe; one should not be mislead by that.

This is due to the verbal transmission.

Jesus was a Jew and concurred with Moses on belief in One-True-God Yahweh; yet the modern Christians don’t follow Jesus’ teachings and believe in Trinity invented by Paul.

It is not difficult to understand, I think.

01/09/2014 at 4:09 pm
@ Sabio Lantz 01/09/2014 at 4:05 pm

I think I am already talking. Am I not?

Takis Konstantopoulos
01/09/2014 at 4:12 pm
I think I understand. There is one god, let’s call her (or him?) G. This G revealed “the truth” to “the righteous ones” at “some point of time.” But then his (or her) message was corrupted and people started revering all kinds of deities. Because of the passage of time, the diversion became greater and greater. This is why, at the present time, there are mutually incompatible beliefs.

OK, I get it.

Please let me know if my syllogism is a correct interpretation of your last post.

But then, I have a further question. I arrive at this world endowed with no religion and no beliefs whatsoever. At some point in my life I decide to pick a religion. Which one should I pick?

01/09/2014 at 4:32 pm
I think you have understood me correctly.
You should search yourself and join the Truthful Religion wherever you find it:

[29:70] And as for those who strive in Our path — We will surely guide them in Our ways. And verily Allah is with those who do good.

Takis Konstantopoulos
01/09/2014 at 4:58 pm
To clarify: I don’t mean to say that the particular passage from the Quran is corrupt–that I don’t know–but that, for sure (you agreed on that), there are corruptions in the Quran or whichever other texts Muslims use. Right?

01/09/2014 at 6:44 pm
@Takis Konstantopoulos 01/09/2014 at 4:58 pm
Quoting your words:
(you agreed on that) Unquote

Please quote my words.

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