Posts Tagged ‘doubt’

“There should be a God”: a stepping stone to certainty

February 8, 2014
Mirza Bashir Ahmad

Mirza Bashir Ahmad

Mirza Bashir Ahmad, an able son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi has written a good note on the above topic, I want that the viewers enjoy it reading:

Mirza Bashir Ahmad said:

“It is even more regrettable that most people who turn towards God do not get past the point that there should be a God. But there is no doubt that this is a stepping stone to the next level, that of certainty. In the spiritual world, this is the point where one begins to possess awareness. But if one stops short at this point and thinks he has achieved the be all and end all, then this same state can even prove dangerous for him. Many a time, man retraces his steps backward from this point and falls into the dark pit of atheism.

In his search for God, he ends up a disbeliever and dies in the same state. When he realizes that he has not been able to reach God despite all his efforts, and has merely succeeded in learning that there should be a God, he is overcome by disappointment and ultimately becomes an atheist. His is like a person who finds a room locked from inside and thus infers that there must be someone in it. He knocks and knocks and shouts for the door to be opened, but the door does not open, nor does he hear any sound from within.

Doubt begins to assail his heart and he starts considering the possibility that perhaps the door got accidentally locked from inside, or that the person inside is dead. At long last he loses all hope and turns back convinced that there is no one in the room.

If the comprehension that there should be a God does not lead to the certainty that there is a God, then the result will be nothing but despair and denial. Alas, how unfortunate would be the one who travelled such a great distance under the light of the feeble and dim lamp of one’s reason.

When the opportunity came to recognize his God with the help of the magnificent light of the spiritual sun of God, and he got so close to Him that His Holy attributes may envelop him like a mother’s lap, at that point, he should think that he had reached his final destination and left the track to spend the remainder of his life there! How can one’s heart be satisfied without achieving its goal, when God has placed in it the thirst for true knowledge which requires perfect conviction, and has endowed it with a burning fire of love that cannot be put out without the water of Divine love?

Even if you do not deceive others, you are nonetheless deceiving yourselves. Remember, in certain situations being misled can also bring you to the fold of criminals.

Therefore, fear God and do not just sit down on the fence and be the cause of your own spiritual death as well as that of others.

Pages 41-43
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/OurGod.pdf

Quran Verse [29:70]: meaning Seekers after Truth surely would find Truth

January 15, 2014

Quran Verse [29:70]:

[29:70] And as for those who strive in Our path — We will surely guide them in Our ways. And verily Allah is with those who do good.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=29&verse=69

One of my Atheist friends on another blog has cast doubt on the collection, compiling and preservation of Quran.

I quoted the above verse for the meaning and the reason mentioned in it; and I always do that.

One can, if one likes to, doubt its words; but if there is a reason mentioned in it and one finds it to be truthful; the reason should not be rejected just for the doubt in the literal text.

I think it is a general observation that one who strives and works hard for a thing, and leaves no stone unturned gets successful in the end.

I find similar sentence/writings in other cultures and religious scriptures of the world. If one searches one would testify to its Truth. It is full of wisdom.

One gets fruit of one’s labor to be sure. If one is not sure of one’s search one could never get into any scientific search/research.

For search in the path to reaching One-True-God; He has added assurance to the seekers; they should not be in doubt that they will fail; the honest search will be fruitful.

It is not a bad work to search; it is a positive step and is good for the individual and for the society.

Quran mentions in the very beginning of it while describing the merit and excellences of the believers/seekers:

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif Lam Mim.
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe Prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee, and that which was revealed before thee, and they have firm faith in what is yet to come.
2:6] It is they who follow the guidance of their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2

The believers/seekers have to be open-minded; and they must confirm the Truth in other scripture as much as it is in them; and the corruption done by scribes has to be pointed out if there is found any. This is what I do; and this is what Quran teaches one to do.

With all the reasons mentioned above; if one still doubts the text of the verse [29:70]: then one should identify the person who wrote or added it to Quran; and give the reference of the Quran which did not contain this verse or with other text in the original Arabic.

The burden of proof is on such claimant/s; no compulsion however.

Buddha has got nothing to do with Atheism or Skepticism.

December 23, 2013

I re-blogged the following post in my blog one could view it at the following link:
“The Garden of Eden was in Congo ”
http://maasaiboys.wordpress.com/2013/12/18/the-garden-of-eden-was-in-congo/

The comments exchanged are also given below:

paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 10:49

Reblogged this on paarsurrey and commented:
??
Reply

archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 11:35

Hello, Paarsurrey, I don’t believe I’ve met you yet – how are you? I look forward to your comments from a Muslim perspective. I have a number of former Muslim friends, from Egypt, who post on the thinkatheist.com website, who are now atheists. As you are a peaceful Muslim, so we are peaceful atheists, mostly.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 11:58

Yes;we have never met before; but it is never late when two humans meet and share their experiences.
I like the post “The Garden of Eden was in Congo”. How do we know which one is the original; the Bible version or the Congo version.
Reply
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:00

Good question. The Congo one is independent of the bible one and may be older than the bible one just as there are many stories in the bible told after the fact but passed as prophecy.

How have you been? I haven’t heard from you in quite a while.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:09

Thanks for remembering me.
May be both the stories in origin have been revealed to both the people independently by the One-True-God Allah Yahweh.

makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:08

Thanks for that insight. I haven’t read the book either and I honestly must say I haven’t read much anthropology too. But as you say, the stories, if true would challenge beliefs held by many people.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:16

There is no challenge in it. I believe that the One-True-God Allah Yahweh conversed with ever people; since the source is common hence the commonalities of stories.
Reply
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:17

I agree with you the source is common and that is human minds.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:23

I don’t agree with you here.
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:25

I am fine with that.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 18:50

“I believe that the One-True-God Allah Yahweh conversed with ever people; since the source is common hence the commonalities of stories.”

Most cultures, Paarsurrey, around the world, have flood stories, and many religious apologetics cite this as proof of Noah’s universal flood, which we now know was plagiarized from a minor Mesopotamian river flood of 2900 BCE. There is no evidence for a global flood to be found. Each culture has had a flood happen to their people at some time in their history, but that doesn’t mean their floods didn’t happen at widely different times.

Both Islam and Christianity evolved from Judaism, and there is no evidence for either of their magical claims, nor to believe that some supernatural being chose a family of nomadic goatherders to be his chosen people and carry his message to the world. I say this with all due respect to your own beliefs, I am merely expressing mine.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:04

Of course you could express your opinion freely but I don’t see it to be correct.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:34

I never, for a moment, Paarsurrey, entertained the hope that you would. Sadly, most of us are never able to free ourselves from the philosophical system – and that’s exactly what all religions are – in which we are indoctrinated as children. Fortunately, on the other hand, some of us are able to move into the 21st century, and you will find a small collection of us here.

Because I can’t imagine this conversation going much further, let me leave you with this advice to consider:

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
– Buddha –

Pax vobiscum – or, as you might more readily say, As-Salaam Alaikom –
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:42

Wa Ulaikumus Salam
Thank you.
Please do not doubt unless it is reasonable to doubt; it is unnatural to doubt to start with.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:49

With Humankind, it is natural to question.
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:55

Yes; if it is reasonable otherwise it would by cynical; please don’t mind.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 22:04

Who decides what “reasonable” is? Question, then decide for yourself if the answer, not the question, is “reasonable.”

“If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood, or persuaded of afterward, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call in question or discuss it…the life of that man is one long sin against mankind.”

– William Kingdon Clifford –

And against himself, I would hasten to add.
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 22:56

Doubt, my friend is the beginning of wisdom. Be wary of anyone who discourages you from doubt.
paarsurrey says:
December 21, 2013 at 20:16

If one starts with doubt; one can never get any knowledge; one could end in cynicism.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 21, 2013 at 21:11

“”Question with boldness even the existence of god.”
– Thomas Jefferson –

I’m not sure how you can believe that Paarsurrey – beginning with doubt leads to the collection of evidence, which leads to resolution of the doubt, but based on facts, not suppositions.

Your belief system teaches you to fear questioning ANYthing – I can’t even imagine living like that, nor would I want to. I’m free to follow the evidence, your fear forbids you that luxury.
paarsurrey says:
December 22, 2013 at 04:56

When one sees an anomaly; then it is natural to doubt, question and find the solution; not otherwise..
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 22, 2013 at 06:22

“When one sees an anomaly; then it is natural to doubt, question and find the solution” – I can agree with you about this, but not about this: “not otherwise…” Always question.

“anomaly: something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected”

Now I’ll be quick to admit that my knowledge of the Quran is very limited, and I have no idea how knowledgeable you are with the Bible, as I know that the Quran is supposed to be based on the Biblical Patriarchs, but I also know that a number of the Biblical tales have been significantly changed, or omitted entirely by the authors of the Quran.

The Bible, however, is loaded with anomalies, as is, I suspect, the Quran as well. Examples:
1. An invisible spirit who lives in the sky, magically assembled all of the material in this inconceivably vast universe, from nothing, and created everything.
2. The planet was covered with water, to the point of 15 cubits (22.5 feet) above the highest mountains, despite the fact that there isn’t even half enough water in, on, under, and above the earth to accomplish that, and of the water that IS available, 90% of that is already at or below sea level, and thus unavailable for flooding purposes.
3. How about the Red Sea magically parting, while a million and a half men, women and children walked the 18 miles (at it’s very narrowest point), to get to the other side?

There’s no point in going further, the Bible is riddled with anomalies, including the fact that there is no evidence that any of the Patriarchs, including Moses, upon whom Judaism, Islam and Christianity are based, ever existed.

Oh, and how about old Mo flying from Mecca, to Jerusalem, to heaven, and back to Mecca on a winged horse, in a single evening, getting home in time for breakfast? Anomaly!
paarsurrey says:
December 22, 2013 at 19:10

I an an ordinary man in the street with no claims of any piety or scholarship of any kind.

Krishna, Buddha,Zoroaster, Moses,Jesus, Muhammad, the founders of great revealed religions; they or their Word of Revelation in origin never claimed to writing down any text books of science. They guided humanity in ethical, moral and spiritual realms.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 22, 2013 at 22:56

“I an an ordinary man in the street with no claims of any piety or scholarship of any kind.”
Sounds very much like you’re one of us, yet I sense that you are defending religion. You clearly stated, on your own website, that you are Muslim.
They guided humanity in ethical, moral and spiritual realms.
Some more successfully than others – Yahweh, for example, told the Israelis to commit mass genocide, that rape was ok as long as you married the girl eventually, and many, many other abominable pieces of advice.

I actually quoted you Buddah, but you seemed to reject his opinion:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
– Buddha –
Possibly you will find this a little more to your liking:
“Custom, tradition, and intellectual laziness lead men to follow their religious leaders blindly. Religions have been the sole cause of the bloody wars that have ravaged mankind. Religions have also been resolutely hostile to philosophical speculation and to scientific research. The so-called holy scriptures are worthless and have done more harm than good, whereas the writings of the ancients like Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, and Hippocrates have rendered much greater service to humanity.”
– Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariyā al-Razi –
paarsurrey says:
December 23, 2013 at 04:56

“Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.”; then why should one believe in Atheism?
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 23, 2013 at 05:12

“…why should one believe in Atheism?”

No wonder you’re so critical of atheism, Paarsurrey, you clearly don’t understand it! It’s not about believing, it’s about not believing, and it follows the tenets of Buddah’s advice entirely, in that it depends on evidence – not emotional, irrational belief systems, but rather observation and analysis.

paarsurrey says:
December 23, 2013 at 05:49

Buddha has got nothing to do with Atheism or Skepticism.
Paarsurrey says:
December 25,2013

@archaeopteryx1
The following quote given by you from Buddha is already in my knowledge and I have read it several times:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
– Buddha –

It is a general teachings and is already included in the teachings of the Truthful Religion; there is nothing in it which specifically supports Atheism/Skepticism. Please quote something from Buddha where he supported Atheism/Skepticism specifically.

Thanks

Theists and Atheist are both faith based

December 21, 2013

I started a thread in one of my favorite discussion forum the Hubpages titled “Atheism is a psychological construct of doubt ; not a reality” :

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/118999

Following posts may be read in this connection:

Paarsurrey wrote:

Belief in One-True-God Allah Yahweh is very natural and is a reality; yet those who very unnaturally doubt it they are in no compulsion to believe it.

HowardBThiname wrote:

Ok, “atheism is a psychological construct of doubt ; not a reality”. I’ll agree with that.

But, by the same token, “Theism is a psychological ideation ; not a reality”.

What is real cannot be threatened. What is false, therefore, does not exist, except in the minds of the deluded.

wilderness posted:

As only a quite small percentage of people throughout the history of mankind have expressed a belief in Allah (and even fewer actually had such a belief), it doesn’t seem very “natural”, does it?

paarsurrey posted:

Natural is that what exists irrespective of humans believing or not believing and their numbers.

Wilderness posted:

Ah. Then both Allah and God are very unnatural as neither actually exists.

Why did you say the one was natural?

And why would you say that “Belief in One-True-God Allah Yahweh is very natural” if “natural” is irrespective of belief?

HowardBThiname wrote:

Ok, “atheism is a psychological construct of doubt ; not a reality”. I’ll agree with that.

But, by the same token, “Theism is a psychological ideation ; not a reality”.

What is real cannot be threatened. What is false, therefore, does not exist, except in the minds of the deluded.


Paarsurrey wrote:

You mean the minds of Atheists are free from being deluded?

JMcFarland posted:

no. Not all atheists are skeptics. Some atheists believe ridiculous things with no good reason. In other words, they have faith.

paarsurrey posted:

So the Theists and the Atheists both are faith based.

JMcFarland posted:

No. .. just atheists that believe something without a good reason and without evidence. That’s what faith is. Not all atheists are identical, just like not all theists are identical. Skepticism and atheism are not the same. I wish they were.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Paarsurrey says: one may like to comment in the hubpages or here in this blog.
Everybody is welcome to comment; even those who differ with me.

“It’s All Over?”

July 14, 2013

Paarsurrey says:

The only tools the atheists have are to ask others to provide evidence; if one counters them to provide one; they cannot come up with any.

Their others tools are to ridicule, to be sarcastic and to deride.

All religion(s) (there’s no end of them) should be investigated very seriously. Especially before acceptance, very few do so they are accepted and more ‘holy warriors’ swarm to the cause. Not good …

 

I agree with you; and Atheism , Humanism, Scepticism, Agnosticism etc.., should not be an exception; they should be continuously seen with doubt; as doubt is their basic approach. Doubt, however, cannot lead one to certainty, in my opinion.

I don’t see any much contribution of them in the human history that exceeds from the theists.

 

Argus
July 18th, 2013 at 4:29 am

I likewise try to be a good person. I just don’t like all the agony that various superstitions have created (and are still causing) throughout the ages, I try as best I can to fight it.

I do state without reservation that if there is a God — it’s nothing like many ‘religions’ would have us think.

Even Zen has a saying which means quite literally to “beware of false prophets”—

If you meet the Buddha on the road … kill him!

Fide Dubitandum

they_think_its_all_over_1999a-smallThe Spectator has published an article, proclaiming the end of the New Atheist movement, and the rise of a group of atheist thinkers who see religion in a much more nuanced way.

As much as I’d like to believe this, I’m not convinced.

Yes, I’d say that the New Atheism, like any movement, must always face the choice between adaptation or death. And, yes, they will eventually need to acknowledge the complex realities of life, and transition out of this simple atheism-good/religion-bad narrative that they hammer so tirelessly if they want people to keep listening.

But it is a bit premature to say that the movement is dead. Some are starting to realize that its treatment of religion has been unfair to the point of propagandistic, and journalists do seem to feel that the novelty of hearing someone proclaim “the world would simply be better without religion” has worn…

View original post 256 more words

Cynicism or doubt

June 22, 2013

I liked comments of a contemporary blog <http://xfacktor.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/the-meaning-of/> under the topic <The Meaning Of…>; I publish the comments again with a different caption.

xfacktor worte:

on March 22, 2007 at 3:43 pm

I think you’re confusing cynicism for an intellectual and healthy doubt. In my view, everything is to be doubted until the evidence proves with clarity the truth of a given idea. If someone doubts everything without working to discover truth, they are simply rebellious dissenters. The key is to doubt and become enlightened.

http://xfacktor.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/the-meaning-of/#comment-239

Paarsurrey wrote:

@ xfacktor

I like your comments of March 22, 2007 at 3:43 pm

I think one should not doubt unless there is a reasonable ground to doubt; this way one could avoid being a prey to cynicism.

What do the Atheists say?

April 12, 2013

About the quote from Yann Martel’s book, Life of Pi:

“Doubt is useful for a while. … But we must move on. To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation.”

America Is NOT A Christian Nation

April 12, 2013

Paarsurrey says:

I liked your style. It was interesting to read your  post.

The best part of it was the quotation:

“Doubt is useful for a while. … But we must move on. To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation.”

-Yann Martel, Life of Pi

Common Sense

Many Christians argue that America was founded on Christian morals and beliefs. I have never really been able to grasp that crazy concept especially given the fact that we were founded based on a collective agreement that religion in government is a bad thing and we no longer wanted to be oppressed by it. Religious oppression is the very reason America is HERE today! So, why circle back? Well, we are on track for doing just that.

From 1892 to 1954, god was not mentioned in our pledge of allegiance. It took the Communist scare of the early 50’s to get the word “God” added to anything. You see, at that time, communists were known atheists and since we did not want to align ourselves with communism in any way, we over reacted (weird) and added the word “God” to everything so that it was known that we weren’t atheist therefore we could not…

View original post 895 more words

Credulity or My de-conversion Pt. 1

March 21, 2013

Paarsurrey says:

“Without wisdom there is no reason”- Buddha.

I think it is very normal to believe in something without evidence if one does not have a reasonable doubt in what is told to one in the everyday life.

If one doubts everything; life will become miserable and one could end into abject confusion;wisdom should prevail.

After all even in science we don’t do all the experiments ourselves and we mostly rely on the experiments done by others as we don’t have any reasonable doubt on what the scientists say.

Critical thinking is not banned in the truthful religion, in my opinion.

The truthful religion rather exhorts normal critical thinking with reason:

[2:171] And when it is said to them, ‘Follow that which Allah has sent down,’ they say: ‘Nay, we will follow that wherein we found our fathers.’ What! even if their fathers had no sense at all and no guidance?

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=170

thenistartedthinking

Credulity, the willingness to believe without evidence.
It comes in all different guises, from Facebook posts that promise a share in a lottery winning if you share or like it, to belief in astrology or psychics (notastronomy and physics). We all have unexamined, unsubstantiated beliefs, yet most of us don’t think we are gulible, we think of ourselves as thoughtful and reasonable people.
My journey from belief to unbelief in god happened as I started applying the same critical thinking methods that I used to examine other religious claims to my own.
It started with prayer. I was struck by the absurdity of praying for sick people the way that it was done in the church I was part of.
In the church that I came out of, there is the belief that god works in everything. When you pray, you can ask god to do a thing…

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Religion brought civilization

November 25, 2011

There took place an interesting discussion on the above topic, initiated by me, on my favorite discussion forum, the hubpages.

I have omitted some of the posts which were not directly related to the issue of the topic and which don’t add any meaning to the discussion at hand; the conversation is given hereunder for the viewers of this blog with courtesy of hubpages.

I, however, respect and love all the posters on the hubpages.

One may access the following link to see the whole of it.

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86167

OP from Paarsurrey

Religion brought civilization

Gobekli Tepe proves it.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text

1. A Troubled Man

And once again, we see that you have failed at one or both of these:

1. Read the article
2. Comprehended the article

“What it suggests, at least to the archaeologists working there, is that the human sense of the sacred—and the human love of a good spectacle—may have given rise to civilization itself.”

2. autumn18

The article doesn’t prove anything. It shows that some of the worlds archaeologists are still researching the beginning of civilization.

3. Paarsurrey

“The Birth of Religion
We used to think agriculture gave rise to cities and later to writing, art, and religion. Now the world’s oldest temple suggests the urge to worship sparked civilization.”

The article does hint clearly that farming and civilization started 12000 years ago with religion; it did not start with atheism.

4. A Troubled Man posted

Funny guy, you’ll say anything to prop up your beliefs. You post links that actually DO NOT support what you claim and what you believe.

5. Psycheskinner

The same argument could probably be made for the fermenting of alcohol.

6. A Troubled Man

+1

7. SimeyC

No argument there: alcohol = civilization.

Even God knew this – there was a Eleventh Commandment that was accidently broken:
Though shalt all consume alcohol

Why do you think Jesus turned water into wine?

OK so there goes my chance of getting into heaven!!!!

8. Disappearinghead

God gave us beer because He wanted us to be happy.

9. Emile R

Fascinating article paar. Thanks for sharing the link.

10. Paarsurrey

Yet the atheists won’t accept it; once they have decided psychologically to doubt everything, they cannot come out of this wrong state. Their thinking is neither natural nor reasonable.

Thanks for your appreciation.

11. Wilderness

“Wrong state”. Yet it behooves us to doubt everything we hear – the vast majority of “information” we receive is not factual.

Far better to doubt and look for truth than to simply believe everything we hear because it fits with what we want to be true. It is a concept you would be well advised to understand better.

12. Paarsurrey

One should doubt only where it is reasonable to doubt; not otherwise; then it will become a psychological disease.

Science does not support your viewpoint; it supports only where it is reasonable to doubt.

13. Wilderness

Wrong again, Paar. You have immersed yourself so thoroughly in the world of theology that you haven’t the faintest idea of how science works or what it does.

Science always doubts; only after thousands or tens of thousands of tests is something beyond doubt, and even then only in those particular circumstances of the tests.

Theology on the other hand will declare there is no reasonable doubt after deciding something is true; tests aren’t necessary, only rationalization that leads to the predetermined conclusion. There is thus always serious doubt by scientific methodology but theology doesn’t recognize that methodology so the truth stands.

You truly need to try, and try hard, to understand this concept. Science doesn’t accept theological methodology as useful any more than theology accepts science methodology as required. You continue to use religious methods of finding truth and expect science to agree, but it doesn’t work that way.

14. Paarsurrey

Science only will deal where there is a reasonable ground to doubt; if they observe some anomaly then they would doubt; otherwise they need not.

15. Emile R

Let me clarify. The article doesn’t support your OP. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t fascinating though. Did you notice they haven’t excavated anymore than a portion of one tenth of the site? And that there could be monuments even deeper, going further back in history?

Amazing discoveries could still be ahead.

16. Paarsurrey

I agree with you.

17. A Troubled Man

Really? Or, is it such that you never read the article or you didn’t comprehend it and now you’re trying to back peddle because the article does not support your silly claims?

Funny how the more you post, the more we can see what your religion has actually taught you.

18. Psycheskinner

This morning the sun rose to the sound of geese honking. So clearly geese cause the sun to rise.

19. Wilderness posted

Just so. Religion may well have risen alongside civilization; as more and more people live in close contact it is inevitable that someone will invent and use religion to control the others. Also, any new thought about understanding the world around us (there is a god throwing lightning bolts and causing thunder) spreads quickly with lots of people around.

There is, however, no indication that religion caused the rise of civilization. It is convenient to think so as it gives a usefulness to religion that isn’t there, and you will find lots of people that will believe it because, just like your geese, the time element works.

On the whole, though, religion retards the progression of civilization. Religion almost always denies new knowledge and will always try to maintain the status quo as that’s what keeps it in power – this is not bringing civilization.

20. Couturepopcafe

I believe you are right, wilderness. Ancient Greece was civilized beyond belief well before the advent of organized religion. They dressed elegantly in draped garments designating their status in the community, women wore ‘gym’ clothes to participate in spartan athletic games of skill, and men debated world views and allowed the opinions of women equal weight.

21. Paarsurrey

I don’t agree with you.

Socrates, a cream of them, himself was a messenger prophet of the Creator God.

22. A Troubled Man

“Taqiyya, meaning religious dissimulation, is a practice emphasized in Shi’a Islam whereby adherents may conceal their religion when they are under threat, persecution, or compulsion. This means a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are under those risks.”

Someone is certainly taking advantage of this immoral and unethical Islamic teaching.

23. Paarsurrey

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim; and the posters here know very well that I don’t conceal that.

24. A Troubled Man

And, like all other Muslims, you will use Taqiyaa when it suits your purposes, as you have done here countless times.

25. Couturepopcafe

paars – do you really think so? Socrates was an existentialist, believing we should think for ourselves, examine every bit of authority and worldview. He believed in perfecting ones soul but is never said to have been a devotee of one god. That doesn’t mean he discounted the existence of god as a collective consciousness.

You may be correct in that sense. As a messenger, or person who lived at a higher level of awareness, he was trying to tell us that we should examine our own thinking, purpose, and awareness and not be cattled by conventional thinking.

26. Paarsurrey

Please quote Socrates’ words to support your view point.

27. Paarsurrey

To return to the topic of the thread “Religion brought civilization” I quote from the article about “Göbekli Tepe”:

“ Most of the world’s great religious centers, past and present, have been destinations for pilgrimages—think of the Vatican, Mecca, Jerusalem, Bodh Gaya (where Buddha was enlightened), or Cahokia (the enormous Native American complex near St. Louis). They are monuments for spiritual travelers, who often came great distances, to gawk at and be stirred by. Göbekli Tepe may be the first of all of them, the beginning of a pattern. What it suggests, at least to the archaeologists working there, is that the human sense of the sacred—and the human love of a good spectacle—may have given rise to civilization itself.”

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text

28. A Troubled Man

That’s exactly the same quote I provided to you showing that your claim in the OP is nonsense. Now, you use the very same quote to support your claim? Just how dishonest are you going to get?

OOO
Hubpages is a good discussion site; one could comment there or here in this blog; comments are most welcome.

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/86167