Posts Tagged ‘challenge’

In response to Challenge of Sam Harris : Reason, passions and Morality

February 8, 2014

In response to Challenge of Sam Harris, I have sent the following essay:

Reason, passions and Morality

The topic of morality has little relevance with science; hence this topic has never been discussed in any text book of science as to its claim or the reasons in this regards. The question relates to religion as its nature suggests.

The true relationship between the human morals viz-a-viz natural human instincts has been discussed and explained in the book “Philosophy of Teachings of Islam” by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908) – the Promised Messiah. I will provide a summary of it below mostly in his words.

Natural conditions are not something distinct from moral conditions. When they are regulated and are used on their proper occasions, under the direction of reason, they acquire a moral character. Before they are controlled by reason and understanding they have not the character of moral qualities, but are natural impulses, however much they might resemble moral qualities.

For instance, if a dog or lamb displays affection or docility towards its master it would not be described as moral or good-mannered. In the same way a wolf or a tiger would not be described as ill-mannered on account of its wildness.

A moral state emerges after reflection and regard for time and occasion come into play. A person who does not exercise reason and deliberation is like a child whose mind and intellect are not yet governed by reason, or is like a madman who has lost his reason and good sense. A child or a mad man sometimes behaves in a manner that has the appearance of moral action, but no sensible person calls such conduct moral, as such conduct does not proceed from good sense and appropriateness, but is a natural reaction to the circumstances.

A human infant, as soon as it is born, seeks its mother’s breasts, and a chicken, as soon as it is hatched begins to pick up corn. In the same way the spawn of a leech behave like a leech, a baby serpent behaves like a serpent and a tiger cub behaves like a tiger. A human infant begins to exhibit human reactions as soon as it is born and those reactions become more and more remarkable as it begins to grow up. For instance, its weeping becomes louder, and its smiles become laughter, and its gaze becomes more concentrated.

At the age of a year or eighteen months it develops another natural trait: it begins to display its pleasure and displeasure through its movements and tries to strike someone or to give something to someone. All these motions are natural impulses. Similarly a barbarian who possesses little human sense is like such an infant and displays natural impulses in his words, actions and movements and is governed by his natural emotions.

Nothing proceeds from him in consequence of the exercise of his inner faculties. Whatever surges up from his inside under the operation of a natural impulse and as a reaction to external stimuli, becomes manifest. It is possible that his natural impulses that are exhibited as a reaction to an external stimulus may not all be vicious, and some might resemble good morals, but they are normally not the consequences of reasonable reflection and consideration, and even if they are to some degree so motivated they cannot be relied upon on account of the domination of natural impulses.
In short we cannot attribute true morals to a person who is subject to natural impulses like animals or infants or the insane, and who lives more or less like animals. The time of true morals, whether good or bad, begins when a person’s reason becomes mature and he is able to distinguish between good and bad and the degree of evil and goodness, and begins to feel sorry when he misses an opportunity of doing good and is remorseful when he has done some wrong. This is the second stage of his life which is designated by the Holy Quran the self that reproves.

True Courage: Of the natural conditions of man is that which resembles courage, as an infant sometimes seeks to thrust his hand into the fire on account of its natural condition of fearlessness. In that condition a person fearlessly confronts tigers and other wild beasts and issues forth alone to fight a large number of people. Such a one is considered very brave. But this is only a natural condition that is found even in savage animals and in dogs.

To be steadfast against every personal passion or against any calamity that attacks like an enemy and not to run away out of cowardice is true courage. Thus, there is a great difference between human courage and the courage of a wild beast. A wild animal is moved only in one direction when it is roused, but a man who possesses true courage chooses confrontation or non-resistance whichever might be appropriate to the occasion.
I give below a passage from the book:

“It is characteristic of the human self that it incites man to evil and is opposed to his attainment of perfection and to his moral state, and urges him towards undesirable and evil ways. Thus the propensity towards evil and intemperance is a human state which predominates over the mind of a person before he enters upon the moral state. This is man’s natural state, so long as he is not guided by reason and understanding but follows his natural bent in eating, drinking, sleeping, waking, anger and provocation, like the animals. When a person is guided by reason and understanding and brings his natural state under control and regulates it in a proper manner, then these three states, as described, cease to remain the categories as natural states, but are called moral states.” Unquote

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

One may like to read answer to the “FIRST QUESTION- The Physical, Moral and Spiritual States of Man” from the above book to understand the topic of morality fully.

Buddha has got nothing to do with Atheism or Skepticism.

December 23, 2013

I re-blogged the following post in my blog one could view it at the following link:
“The Garden of Eden was in Congo ”
http://maasaiboys.wordpress.com/2013/12/18/the-garden-of-eden-was-in-congo/

The comments exchanged are also given below:

paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 10:49

Reblogged this on paarsurrey and commented:
??
Reply

archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 11:35

Hello, Paarsurrey, I don’t believe I’ve met you yet – how are you? I look forward to your comments from a Muslim perspective. I have a number of former Muslim friends, from Egypt, who post on the thinkatheist.com website, who are now atheists. As you are a peaceful Muslim, so we are peaceful atheists, mostly.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 11:58

Yes;we have never met before; but it is never late when two humans meet and share their experiences.
I like the post “The Garden of Eden was in Congo”. How do we know which one is the original; the Bible version or the Congo version.
Reply
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:00

Good question. The Congo one is independent of the bible one and may be older than the bible one just as there are many stories in the bible told after the fact but passed as prophecy.

How have you been? I haven’t heard from you in quite a while.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:09

Thanks for remembering me.
May be both the stories in origin have been revealed to both the people independently by the One-True-God Allah Yahweh.

makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:08

Thanks for that insight. I haven’t read the book either and I honestly must say I haven’t read much anthropology too. But as you say, the stories, if true would challenge beliefs held by many people.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:16

There is no challenge in it. I believe that the One-True-God Allah Yahweh conversed with ever people; since the source is common hence the commonalities of stories.
Reply
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:17

I agree with you the source is common and that is human minds.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:23

I don’t agree with you here.
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:25

I am fine with that.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 18:50

“I believe that the One-True-God Allah Yahweh conversed with ever people; since the source is common hence the commonalities of stories.”

Most cultures, Paarsurrey, around the world, have flood stories, and many religious apologetics cite this as proof of Noah’s universal flood, which we now know was plagiarized from a minor Mesopotamian river flood of 2900 BCE. There is no evidence for a global flood to be found. Each culture has had a flood happen to their people at some time in their history, but that doesn’t mean their floods didn’t happen at widely different times.

Both Islam and Christianity evolved from Judaism, and there is no evidence for either of their magical claims, nor to believe that some supernatural being chose a family of nomadic goatherders to be his chosen people and carry his message to the world. I say this with all due respect to your own beliefs, I am merely expressing mine.
Reply
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:04

Of course you could express your opinion freely but I don’t see it to be correct.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:34

I never, for a moment, Paarsurrey, entertained the hope that you would. Sadly, most of us are never able to free ourselves from the philosophical system – and that’s exactly what all religions are – in which we are indoctrinated as children. Fortunately, on the other hand, some of us are able to move into the 21st century, and you will find a small collection of us here.

Because I can’t imagine this conversation going much further, let me leave you with this advice to consider:

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
– Buddha –

Pax vobiscum – or, as you might more readily say, As-Salaam Alaikom –
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:42

Wa Ulaikumus Salam
Thank you.
Please do not doubt unless it is reasonable to doubt; it is unnatural to doubt to start with.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:49

With Humankind, it is natural to question.
paarsurrey says:
December 18, 2013 at 21:55

Yes; if it is reasonable otherwise it would by cynical; please don’t mind.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 18, 2013 at 22:04

Who decides what “reasonable” is? Question, then decide for yourself if the answer, not the question, is “reasonable.”

“If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood, or persuaded of afterward, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call in question or discuss it…the life of that man is one long sin against mankind.”

– William Kingdon Clifford –

And against himself, I would hasten to add.
makagutu says:
December 18, 2013 at 22:56

Doubt, my friend is the beginning of wisdom. Be wary of anyone who discourages you from doubt.
paarsurrey says:
December 21, 2013 at 20:16

If one starts with doubt; one can never get any knowledge; one could end in cynicism.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 21, 2013 at 21:11

“”Question with boldness even the existence of god.”
– Thomas Jefferson –

I’m not sure how you can believe that Paarsurrey – beginning with doubt leads to the collection of evidence, which leads to resolution of the doubt, but based on facts, not suppositions.

Your belief system teaches you to fear questioning ANYthing – I can’t even imagine living like that, nor would I want to. I’m free to follow the evidence, your fear forbids you that luxury.
paarsurrey says:
December 22, 2013 at 04:56

When one sees an anomaly; then it is natural to doubt, question and find the solution; not otherwise..
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 22, 2013 at 06:22

“When one sees an anomaly; then it is natural to doubt, question and find the solution” – I can agree with you about this, but not about this: “not otherwise…” Always question.

“anomaly: something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected”

Now I’ll be quick to admit that my knowledge of the Quran is very limited, and I have no idea how knowledgeable you are with the Bible, as I know that the Quran is supposed to be based on the Biblical Patriarchs, but I also know that a number of the Biblical tales have been significantly changed, or omitted entirely by the authors of the Quran.

The Bible, however, is loaded with anomalies, as is, I suspect, the Quran as well. Examples:
1. An invisible spirit who lives in the sky, magically assembled all of the material in this inconceivably vast universe, from nothing, and created everything.
2. The planet was covered with water, to the point of 15 cubits (22.5 feet) above the highest mountains, despite the fact that there isn’t even half enough water in, on, under, and above the earth to accomplish that, and of the water that IS available, 90% of that is already at or below sea level, and thus unavailable for flooding purposes.
3. How about the Red Sea magically parting, while a million and a half men, women and children walked the 18 miles (at it’s very narrowest point), to get to the other side?

There’s no point in going further, the Bible is riddled with anomalies, including the fact that there is no evidence that any of the Patriarchs, including Moses, upon whom Judaism, Islam and Christianity are based, ever existed.

Oh, and how about old Mo flying from Mecca, to Jerusalem, to heaven, and back to Mecca on a winged horse, in a single evening, getting home in time for breakfast? Anomaly!
paarsurrey says:
December 22, 2013 at 19:10

I an an ordinary man in the street with no claims of any piety or scholarship of any kind.

Krishna, Buddha,Zoroaster, Moses,Jesus, Muhammad, the founders of great revealed religions; they or their Word of Revelation in origin never claimed to writing down any text books of science. They guided humanity in ethical, moral and spiritual realms.
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 22, 2013 at 22:56

“I an an ordinary man in the street with no claims of any piety or scholarship of any kind.”
Sounds very much like you’re one of us, yet I sense that you are defending religion. You clearly stated, on your own website, that you are Muslim.
They guided humanity in ethical, moral and spiritual realms.
Some more successfully than others – Yahweh, for example, told the Israelis to commit mass genocide, that rape was ok as long as you married the girl eventually, and many, many other abominable pieces of advice.

I actually quoted you Buddah, but you seemed to reject his opinion:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
– Buddha –
Possibly you will find this a little more to your liking:
“Custom, tradition, and intellectual laziness lead men to follow their religious leaders blindly. Religions have been the sole cause of the bloody wars that have ravaged mankind. Religions have also been resolutely hostile to philosophical speculation and to scientific research. The so-called holy scriptures are worthless and have done more harm than good, whereas the writings of the ancients like Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, and Hippocrates have rendered much greater service to humanity.”
– Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariyā al-Razi –
paarsurrey says:
December 23, 2013 at 04:56

“Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.”; then why should one believe in Atheism?
archaeopteryx1 says:
December 23, 2013 at 05:12

“…why should one believe in Atheism?”

No wonder you’re so critical of atheism, Paarsurrey, you clearly don’t understand it! It’s not about believing, it’s about not believing, and it follows the tenets of Buddah’s advice entirely, in that it depends on evidence – not emotional, irrational belief systems, but rather observation and analysis.

paarsurrey says:
December 23, 2013 at 05:49

Buddha has got nothing to do with Atheism or Skepticism.
Paarsurrey says:
December 25,2013

@archaeopteryx1
The following quote given by you from Buddha is already in my knowledge and I have read it several times:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
– Buddha –

It is a general teachings and is already included in the teachings of the Truthful Religion; there is nothing in it which specifically supports Atheism/Skepticism. Please quote something from Buddha where he supported Atheism/Skepticism specifically.

Thanks

Got some question/objection against a teaching of Quran? | a challenge for understanding Quran

June 26, 2013

 
I wrote posts on <http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/> under the topic < Got some question/objection against a teaching of Quran?>; the posts are given below for the viewers of this blog.

#1  #4  #5   #6

(To see the context of a post, please, click the post #; that will take you to the full single view of the post in the forum, and then click the thread topic on the right upper corner, that will take you to the discussion that ensued in the forum.)

Paarsurrey wrote:

#1

Please quote just one verse, not many verses, for which you have a question; and then kindly prove your point of view from the verse and the verses in the context.
We may help to remove the objection or find a suitable reply to it.

Thanks

#4

Originally Posted by Union jack

I have an objection against the sin of adding or subtracting one word from the teaching; I don’t know what verse it is but “Boxing their ears” to put them to sleep, is antiquated

Paarsurrey responded:

I don’t think there is any any such verse in Quran. I tried to Google with the search terms <sin of adding or subtracting one word from the teaching Quran “Boxing their ears”>;but could not find any verse to that affect.

Sorry.

Thanks for asking.

Maybe it is in the NT Bible; last passage of “Book of Revelation”.

#5

If it is a gross sin to add or subtract from the “Word” then it seems the message is only for those who speak Arabic, and perhaps live in the area prescribed by G

Paarsurrey responded:

If somebody makes an intentional change to corrupt the text; I think then it is a wrong.

The translations if seen deeply are interpretations of the translator; so these are not considered Word from the one true God.

I think, it helps.

#6

So there are no objections on the teachings of Quran, at least none has surfaced here.

There could not be any as it is the pristine Word of the one true God; it defends not only itself but even the truth in the Revelations before it.

#7

Originally Posted by Union jack

That helps. The words can be substituted to allow for growth towards a pristine state.

Paarsurrey adds:

Not many people came up to accept the challenge; and those who came up as could be seen from above, they got a reasonable and satisfactory reply.

Thank God.

Still there is an opportunity to get one’s objection against Quran/Islam/Muhammad resolved in the religious education forum under the above thread or to write here in this blog as per < post number 1> above.

Ali Sina’s Misconceptions Corrected

November 20, 2009

Ali Sinas Challenge
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3552&start=60

Ali Sina wrote:
To ultimatetruth:

A Reply from Ali Sina

Hello ….,
Truth cannot be found. Albert Einstein, yes that Jew whom Muhammad called monkey and pig said: “Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.” There is a world of wisdom in these words. You can never find the truth. All you can do is expose the lies and get closer to the truth. In my writings I am not teaching the ultimate truth. I am exposing the lies of Muhammad and Islam.

Ali

Paarsurrey wrote:

Hi Ali Sina

I think your above reply is not correct. On the one hand you say that “Truth cannot be found”, and on the other hand you are in search of the truth to get closer to the truth. This means, in my opinion, a sort of admission on your part nevertheless that the truth is certainly there, that is why you make a lot of effort to repudiate untruth, so that you may get at the truth. I think you agree with me.

You are exposing, as you say, the untruth of Muhammad and Islam by your posts/writings. How you are sure that what you are writing is fully truth, yourself? May be the concepts you have derived from the sources of Quran/Islam/Muhammad is itself wrong. Will you like if I expose the untruth in your writings/posts here?

So, the absolute truth is there all the time and always.

Truth can be found out, in my opinion, certainly through the Messengers Prophets, who are selected for receiving it through Word of Revelation from the Creator – God Allah YHWH for revealing the Truth to the mankind.

Like in our times the Creator- God Allah YHWH has appointed the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 as a Successor/Caliph of Muhammad from amongst the followers of Muhammad to expound the truth of Quran/Islam/Muhammad. I will therefore expose the untruth in your postings/writing and your wrong concepts from the Quran and from the writings of the Promised Messiah with rational reasonable and logical arguments.

I neither challenge you nor accept your challenge. I will just expose your wrongs; without win or defeat basis; only to get at the truth.

Unlike as you have stated; truth is achievable and Muhammad did achieve it :

[10:94] And We assigned to the children of Israel an excellent abode, and We provided them with good things, and they differed not until there came to them the knowledge. Surely, thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that in which they differed.
[10:95] And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to thee, ask those who have been reading the Book before thee. Indeed the truth has come to thee from thy Lord; be not, therefore, of those who doubt.
[10:96] And be not thou of those who reject the Signs of Allah, or thou shalt be of the losers.
[10:97] Surely, those against whom the word of thy Lord has taken effect will not believe,
[10:98] Even if there come to them every Sign, till they see the grievous punishment.
[10:99] Why was there no other people, save the people of Jonah, who should have believed so that their belief would have profited them? When they believed, We removed from them the punishment of disgrace in the present life, and We gave them provision for a while.
[10:100] And if thy Lord had enforced His will, surely, all who are on the earth would have believed together. Wilt thou, then, force men to become believers?
[10:101] And no soul can believe except by the permission of Allah. And He makes His wrath descend on those who will not use their reason.
[10:102] Say, ‘Consider what is happening in the heavens and the earth.’ But Signs and Warners avail not a people who will not believe.
[10:103] What then do they expect save the like of the days of punishment suffered by those who passed away before them? Say, ‘Wait then, and I am with you among those who wait.’
[10:104] Then shall We save Our Messengers and those who believe. Thus does it always happen; it is incumbent on Us to save believers.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … &verse=103

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim