Direct “Word of G-d” is prefaced by the word “say”

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quotes-series-from-quran-authored-by-g-d-not-by-muhammad.227090/page-6#post-6402649

#108paarsurrey

xshuxxxxxxxxxxx-A Bahai friend said: ↑

If this is the case the Quran is not the only scripture inspired by God.

xxxxxx- A Christian friend said: ↑

I believe I agree that it is inspired by God but not a direct word. Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word “say.”

“Usually a direct word will be prefaced by the word “say.” ”

There are many a verse in Quran that preface the word “say” or the Arabic word “قُلۡ” one such verse is :

[17:82]وَ قُلۡ جَآءَ الۡحَقُّ وَ زَہَقَ الۡبَاطِلُ ؕ اِنَّ الۡبَاطِلَ کَانَ زَہُوۡقًا ﴿۸۲﴾
And say, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Falsehood does indeed vanish away fast.’
The Holy Quran – Chapter: 17: Bani Isra’il

Friend @xxxxx
Doesn’t it prove that Quran is authored by G-d and not authored by Muhammad,please?

Friend @xxxxxxx
I have read “Kitab-i-Iqan” or the “Book of Certitude” from cover to cover .
“it is” the “primary theological work” of Bahaullah. “The work was composed partly in Persian and partly in Arabic by Bahá’u’lláh“:
Kitáb-i-Íqán – Wikipedia
I have read it in Persian/Farsi, and Arabic and in English. I didn’t find any sentence in it from G-d which is prefaced by the word “say” or the Arabic word “قُلۡ”. Did I miss to note it please?

Regards
____________
Furhter the Bahá’í Reference Library Writings of Bahá’u’lláh mentions,
“The Kitáb-i-Íqán – The Book of Certitude.
A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi and first published in English in 1931.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library
So even the publishers Bahá’í Reference Library testify that it is not Word from G-d. Right, please?

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?No, it never happened.

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/did-jesus-die-and-rise-from-the-dead.220049/page-31#post-6083786

#619 paarsurrey

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

No, it never happened.
One may like to read:
“Jesus In India:

by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah and Mahdi (as)

The treatise puts forward the view that Jesus survived crucifixion, left Judea and migrated eastward in order to continue his mission to the ‘Lost Tribes of Israel’, traveling through Persia and Afghanistan and eventually dying a natural and honourable death in Kashmir at an old age. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) applied textual analysis of both the Gospels and Islamic sources – the Quran and hadith – and also drew upon medical and historical material, including ancient Buddhist records, to argue his case.
Jesus In India | Islam Ahmadiyya

Regards

Etuxxxxx said: ↑

I can tell you one things . . . Christians can’t count 

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40)

Some believe that Christ’s “three days and three nights” statement does notrequire a literal span of 72 hours, reasoning that a part of a day can be reckoned as a whole day. Thus, since Jesus died in the afternoon, they think the remainder of Friday constituted the first day, Saturday the second and part of Sunday the third. However, only two nights—Friday night and Saturday night—are accounted for in this explanation. Something is obviously wrong with the traditional view regarding when Christ was in the tomb.

If Jesus were in the tomb only from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning, then the sign He gave that He was the prophesied Messiah was not fulfilled. 

Click to expand…

“I can tell you one things . . . Christians can’t count“. Unquote
#620 paarsurrey

Please elaborate on one’s reasonable evidences/proofs from Religion as well as from science, if any.

Regards

Tonxxxxxxx said: ↑

Jesus gave His life, Christ was raised to return again as promised.

The Spirit gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.

Regards Tony

#621 paarsurrey

One is exposing fallibility of Bahaullah, here, unnecessarily. Right, please?

Regards

Tonxxxxxxxx said: ↑
There is ample proof. There is much more to life than material senses, so no guess is needed, as it takes good logic and good reasoning.

The bible gives this option as being ‘Born Again’. That is someting that can be done in this life, if one so chooses.

Regards Tony

Left Coast said: ↑

What “more” is there to life that you cannot verify through your senses, and how then could you verify the “more” exists?

#622 paarsurrey

Last edited: Yesterday at 12:03 PM

I agree with one, your’s is a reasonable approach.

I understand that Bahaullah wrote something in favor of science, yet the Bahaism people prefer to follow him in blind-faith as if they are living in the abode of mythology. Don’t they, please?

Regards

shxxxxx said: ↑

His heart wasn´t beating, he wasn´t breathing , he had no blood pressure, his body temp, was way below the temp that causes death, his brain had no oxygen for a long period of time.

There is no completely about it, you are either dead or you are alive.

How does one know of all/each of these things. Just guessing, please?

Regards

shmogie said: ↑

There are millions upon millions that agree with me,

#646  paarsurrey

That does not make a myth into the reality. Please remain in the Myth-Land, if that is one’s choice. Right, please?

Regards

 

 

Is now Bahaullah to follow the Bahaism people?

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/was-bahaullah-a-bahai-please.220052/page-5#post-6080787

danxxxxxxxxxx said: ↑
Actually an apology is due on my part, I said that Muhammad prayed with the Jews

shunxxxxxxxx said: ↑

He may have, but there is no record of this.

#95 paarsurrey

No, Muhammad never prayed/Salat as do the Jews . Please accept what is true, but there is no compulsion whatsoever.
Never-mind, I understand it is against the norms of a follower of Bahaullah, normally.
Our friend @danxxxxxxx is different, he is liberal, whatever it means.

Regards

Tony Brisxxxxxxx said: ↑

I have no issue with this, I see it is also applicable to the Bab and Baha’u’llah, so the question is, is that sufficient for your needs?

Regards Tony

#97 paarsurrey

Bahaullah never said that he was a “First Bahai”. Did he, please?
If yes, please quote from him from Iqan, his concepts book.
I understand that perhaps followers of Bahaullah are ahead or stronger followers of Bahaism than Bahaullah was himself. Bahaullah never claimed that he was “First Bahai”, yet his followers here say he was a “First Bahai”, it suggests that now Bahaullah is to follow the Bahaism people and likewise, perhaps, the UHJ also instead of they following Bahaullah.
Right, please?

Regards

shunxxxxx said: ↑

I never said that Muhammad ever prayed as do the Jews. Reread my posts and respond correctly if you have the reading comprehension.

#98 paarsurrey

If one never said, then it is OK, my apologies man.

Regards

danxxxxxxxx said: ↑

142. The fools among the people will say: “What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?” Say: to Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.

143. Thus have We made of you an Ummah justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qiblah to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (from the faith). Indeed it was (a change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

144. We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.
(The Qur’an (Yusuf Ali translation), Surah 2:142-144)

Notice that the people said when Muhammad turned mid-prayer from facing Jerusalem, “What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?” They were used to facing Jerusalem. Of course this is a historical fact independant of the Quran.

From Qibla – Wikipedia

According to the traditional Muslim view, the Qiblah in the Islamic prophet Muhammad’s time was originally the Noble Sanctuary in the city of Jerusalem, similar to Judaism.[1][4] This Qiblah was used for over 13 years, from 610 CE until 623 CE. Seventeen months after Muhammad’s 622 CE arrival in Medina – the date is given as 11 February 624 – the Qiblah became oriented towards the Kaaba in Mecca.[5][6] According to traditional accounts from Muhammad’s companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina, in a mosque now known as Masjid al-Qiblaṫayn (Arabic: مَـسْـجِـد الْـقِـبْـلَـتَـيْـن‎, “Mosque of the Two Qiblahs”).[6] Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received revelations from God instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah (literally, “Turn then Thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque.”).[6][7] According to the traditional accounts contained in the hadith and sira, Muhammad, who had been facing Jerusalem, upon receiving this revelation, immediately turned around to face Mecca, and those praying behind him also did so.[6]

1 Hartsock, Ralph (2014-08-27). “The temple of Jerusalem: past, present, and future”. Jewish Culture and History. 16 (2): 199–201. doi:10.1080/1462169X.2014.953832.
4 Mustafa Abu Sway, The Holy Land, Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Qur’an, Sunnah and other Islamic Literary Source (PDF), Central Conference of American Rabbis, archived from the original (PDF) on 2011-07-28
5 In the Lands of the Prophet, Time-Life, p. 29
6 William Montgomery Watt (7 February 1974). Muhammad: prophet and statesman. Oxford University Press. pp. 112–113. ISBN 978-0-19-881078-0. Retrieved 29 December 2011.
7 Sura 2 (Al-Baqara), ayah 144, Quran 2:144

Click to expand…

#100 paarsurrey

The above write-up does not state that Muhammad was praying/Salat as the Judaism people did. Perhaps I missed something, if so please highlight it. Right, please?

Regards

 

 

Did Baha’ullah understand “Urvatu’l-Vuthqá” correctly?

Blog Post # 2070

I give the verse of Quran where “Urvatu’l-Vuthqá” is mentioned in Quran with the verses in the context:

[2:253] These are the Signs of Allah; We recite them unto thee with truth. Surely, thou art one of the Messengers.

[2:254] These Messengers have We exalted, some of them above others: among them there are those to whom Allah spoke; and some of them He exalted by degrees of rank. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and strengthened him with the Spirit of holiness. And if Allah had so willed, those that came after them would not have fought with one another after clear Signs had come to them; but they did disagree. Of them were some who believed, and of them were some who disbelieved. And if Allah had so willed, they would not have fought with one another; but Allah does what He desires.

[2:255] O ye who believe! spend out of what We have bestowed on you before the day comes wherein there shall be no buying and selling, nor friendship, nor intercession; and it is those who disbelieve that do wrong to themselves.

[2:256] Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great.

[2:257] There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

[2:258] Allah is the friend of those who believe: He brings them out of every kind of darkness into light. And those who disbelieve, their friends are the transgressors who bring them out of light into every kind of darkness. These are the inmates of the Fire; therein shall they abide.

OOOOOOOO

Paarsurrey says:

Baha’ullah by claiming himself god has transgressed greatly and as such has gone astray from the right path of Quran.

On the one hand Baha’ullah says that Quran is secure and not changed, if he had revealed Quran being god, he would have understood that the strong handle is Oneness of God (Allah).

By wrongly describing the “Urvatu’l-Vuthqá” or strong handle in Kitabe Iqan he has been exposed to be wrong.

Baha’ullah’s ,therefore, was neither god nor messenger/prophet of God nor manifestation of God.

Baha’ullah was simply an errant human being.

 

“Did Baha’ullah read and understand Quran correctly?”

Blog Post # 2067

I started the above thread at my favourite discussion forum  (religiousforum.com). One could view/join the discussion by clicking Post #19 .

 

The Bahai said: ↑

al-Qamar 54:50
The word (Amr), means, ‘Cause of God’, or Command.

Post #19 paarsurrey wrote:

I don’t agree with one.
Even the link given by one does not translate it ”Cause of God”. So one’s point is not correct. Kindly understand the Quranic verse correctly, however, there is no compulsion whatsoever for one to make one’s understanding correct. Please
Regards

Note # 1

We get from the above fairly and reasonably that either Baha’ullah did not study Quran intently or he simply misunderstood Quran. Or he wanted to mislead his followers. We could certainly conclude from the above that Baha’ullah was never a god, he was not even a prophet/messenger of God. His son Abdul Baha was never a son of god.

OOOOOOOOO

Note # 2 :

One could view from the website quoted by the Bahai that “amrunā” has been translated as “Our Command” and not “Cause” as done by the Bahais or Bahaullah.

http://islamawakened.com/quran/54/50/w4wcv.html

Arabic وَمَا أَمْرُنَا إِلَّا وَاحِدَةٌ كَلَمْحٍ بِالْبَصَرِ English Transliteration Arabic Arabic Root Audio And not wamā وَمَا م ا (is) Our Command amrunā أَمْرُنَا ا م ر but illā إِلَّا ا ل ل ا one, wāḥidatun وَاحِدَةٌ و ح د like the twinkling kalamḥin كَلَمْحٍ ل م ح (of) the eye. bil-baṣari بِالْبَصَرِ ب ص ر

Note # 3:

The website http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/50/default.htm gives about forty English translation of the Quran verse 54:50 by Muslims and Non-Muslims, none of these has translated the expression “amrunā” as “Cause of God” as held by the Bahai/s.

Arabic Source and Roman Transliteration Arabic وَمَا أَمْرُنَا إِلَّا وَاحِدَةٌ كَلَمْحٍ بِالْبَصَرِ Transliteration Wama amruna illa wahidatun kalamhin bialbasari Literal (Word by Word) And not (is) Our Command but one, like the twinkling (of) the eye. Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning Muhammad Asad and Our ordaining [a thing and its coming into being] is but one [act], like the twinkling of an eye. M. M. Pickthall And Our commandment is but one (commandment), as the twinkling of an eye. Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) And Our Command is but a single (Act),- like the twinkling of an eye. Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) And Our Command is but a single (Act),- like the twinkling of an eye. Shakir And Our command is but one, as the twinkling of an eye. Wahiduddin Khan We command but once: Our will is done in the twinkling of an eye; Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar and Our command is not but one as the twinkling of the eye. T.B.Irving Our command comes only once, in the twinkling of an eye! The Clear Quran, Dr. Mustafa Khattab Our command is but a single word, done in the blink of an eye. Safi Kaskas Our command is but one word, like a twinkling of an eye. [Al-Muntakhab] Thus, Our command to bring into being anything, spiritual animate or inanimate, or to bring into effect any proceedings is but a single act executed instantaneously, like the twinkle of an eye. [The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) And Our commands are done at once with the blink of an eye. Abdel Haleem when We ordain something it happens at once, in the blink of an eye; Abdul Majid Daryabadi And Our commandment shall be but one, as the twinkling of an eye. Ahmed Ali And Our command is but one (word) swift as the winking of an eye. Aisha Bewley Our command is only one word, like the blinking of an eye. Ali Ünal And Our commanding is not other than a single (command), like the twinkling of an eye. Ali Quli Qara’i and Our command is but a single [word], like the twinkling of an eye. Hamid S. Aziz And Our command is but one, as the twinkling of an eye. Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali And in no way is Our Command anything except one (Word), as the twinkling of the eye. (Literally: the power of beholding) Muhammad Sarwar It takes only a single command from Us (to bring the Day of Judgment) and that can be achieved within the twinkling of an eye. Muhammad Taqi Usmani And (implementation of) Our command is no more than a single act like the twinkling of an eye. Shabbir Ahmed And Our Command is but a single Word, like the twinkling of an eye. Syed Vickar Ahamed And Our Command is but a single (Act)— Like the twinkle of an eye. Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) And Our command is but one, like a glance of the eye. Farook Malik We command but once and Our will is done in the twinkling of an eye. Dr. Munir Munshey Our command (and its execution) is just one, (a single event). It comes about in a flash of an eye. Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri And Our command comes into action once and for all as the twinkling of an eye. Dr. Kamal Omar And Our Command is not but (just) a single (decree) like a twinkling of the eye. Talal A. Itani (new translation) And Our command is but once, like the twinkling of an eye. Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition) And Our command is only a single act, like the blink of an eye. Maududi Our command consists of only one Word which is carried out in the twinkling of an eye. Ali Bakhtiari Nejad And Our command is only once, like a blink of an eye. [The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition) And Our commands are done at once with the blink of an eye. Mohammad Shafi And Our Command is just one! Like the twinkling of an eye! Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works Bijan Moeinian It will take only a twinkle of an eye for My (God’s) command to be fulfilled. Faridul Haque And Our command is only a fleeting one – like the batting of an eyelid. Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah And Our Order is but one word like the flashing of an eye. Maulana Muhammad Ali Surely We have created everything according to a measure. Muhammad Ahmed – Samira And Our order/command (is) except one as/like a twinkling/quick glance with the eye sight. Sher Ali And Our command is carried out by only one Word as the twinkling of an eye. Rashad Khalifa Our commands are done within the blink of an eye. Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi) And Our work is only a matter as the twinkling of an eye. Amatul Rahman Omar Our command is (at once carried out by) only one (word) as quickly as the twinkling of an eye. Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali And Our Commandment is but one, as the twinkling of an eye. Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works Arthur John Arberry Our commandment is but one word, as the twinkling of an eye. Edward Henry Palmer and our bidding is but one (word), like the twinkling of an eye! George Sale And our command is no more than a single word, like the twinkling of an eye. John Medows Rodwell Our command was but one word, swift as the twinkling of an eye. N J Dawood (draft) We command but once: Our will is done in the twinkling of an eye. New and/or Partial Translations, and works in progress Mir Aneesuddin And Our command is but one, like the twinkling of an eye.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/54/50/default.htm

 

“Problems with the Baha’i faith”

I contributed in the above thread.

A Bahai wrote:

1.4
As to thy question concerning the heavenly Scriptures: The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements. 

paarsurrey wrote: ↑

Thanks for providing the reference.
I agree with the argument given in the passage given above.
But it is from a tabernacle not from a Kitab/book written by Baha’u’llah.
My question is/was about the “Manifestations of God” which is a term used by Bahais, often. Baha’u’llah has not reflected on this in the passage.
Please quote from a Kitab/book written by Baha’u’llah on this or where he has claimed of himself being a prophet/messenger of God, and not a god per se, in unequivocal terms.
Regards

paarsurrey wrote: ↑

To add further.
The argument has already been given in Quran:

[14:25] Dost thou not see how Allah sets forth the similitude of a good word? It is like a good tree, whose root is firm and whose branches reach into heaven.

[14:26] It brings forth its fruit at all times by the command of its Lord. And Allah sets forth similitudes for men that they may reflect.

[14:27] And the case of an evil word is like that of an evil tree, which is uprooted from above the earth and has no stability.

[14:28] Allah strengthens the believers with the word that is firmly established, both in the present life and in the Hereafter; and Allah lets the wrongdoers go astray. And Allah does what He wills.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine – Al Islam Online

So, as per these verses of Quran, Quran is for every age to come and there could no Revelation come to replace Quran. And if one claims to have Revelation that is to replace Quran, that would be only an evil tree, nothing to do with Quran. Please
Regards

#149 paarsurrey

A Bahai said: ↑

“O servant of God! The Tree which We had planted with the Hand of Providence hath borne its destined fruit, and the glad-tidings We had imparted in the Book have appeared in full effect.”

Bahá’í Reference Library – The Tabernacle of Unity, Pages 71-77

Paarsurrey wrote:

Which book Bahaullah means here? Kindly give name of the book and the verse with the context verses. Please
Regards

#160 paarsurrey

Please click the post  #160 to access the thread at the Forum.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Note: No Bahai could give the name of a book specifically as requested.

Conference of World Religions 2014

Friday Sermon: Conference of World Religions 2014

Sermon Delivered by Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad (at) Head of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

http://www.alislam.org/friday-sermon/2014-03-07.html

Translation of the Sermon is available in following languages.

Urdu English Arabic Bengali Bosnian Bulgarian French German Malayalam Swahili Tamil Turkish

Please click the language of your choice on the link provided above.

Synopsis:

English

Hazrat Khalifatul Masih said that about three weeks ago Jama’at Ahmadiyya UK held a conference to commemorate its 100 years in Britain. Scholars and representatives of various religions were invited to present concept of God and religion based on their scriptures. The theme of the conference was God in the 21st Century. Indeed, Islam was going to be represented at the conference and it was done by Hazrat Khalifatul Masih. Other religions represented were Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Druzes and Zoroastrianism. Also present at the event were Sikhs and Baha’i.

Before giving the details Huzoor said that the administration of UK Jama’at which organised such a big event did not promote it ahead of time as they should have and were satisfied by simply organising it and anticipating a large number of guests. This was a chance to introduce the Jama’at on a wide scale and disseminate the beautiful teaching of Islam to as many people as possible. If the media had been contacted properly it would have produced better results than what we have as a result of efforts Ameer Sahib and his team is making now.

Baroness Warsi said: ‘It is an honour to speak before such an illustrious audience in such prestigious surrounding here at the conference of world religions. It is a testament to the openness and the pragmatism and the humility of the Ahmadiyya community that your flagship global event today is not just about celebrating your own faith but you are celebrating all faiths.

A message from Her Majesty the Queen who is the supreme governor of the Church of England and defender of the faith read: ‘The Queen was pleased to receive your kind message sent on behalf of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK on the occasion of the conference of world religions being held today at Guildhall as part of your centenary celebrations. Her Majesty was interested to learn of the aims of the conference and appreciates your thoughtfulness in writing as you did.
Huzoor told the conference that when God sent the Holy Prophet(saw) to reform the entire world, he surpassed in disseminating the message and not only that, he spent his nights in intense prayer and supplication made to God. In doing so he wept with such anguish and heartache that the place where he prostrated would become submerged in tears. His agony and anguish to reform mankind cannot be described in words.

Huzoor also told the conference that God’s help is with the one He sent in this age, otherwise how could a claimant from a small village in India become renowned throughout the world. And following his passing away without God’s help he could not have left behind such a flourishing community. A community which due to being firmly attached to the institution of Khilafat, was furthering his mission throughout the world.

Next Hazrat Khalifatul Masih said that may the world turn to its Maker, it can only be saved from the destruction that it faces by turning to God. Indeed, the Promised Messiah(as) had warned about this in his writings. Huzoor asked for prayers for the situation in Pakistan. May God save the country from the evil and keep Ahmadis safe and also them safe who wish for peace and wish to avoid conflict and strife. Prayers should also be made about the situation in Syria, may God protect Ahmadis there.