Thread: “Did Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens ….?”
Forum: Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Science and Religion
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paarsurrey1 wrote: The One-True-God is ONE irrespective of whether one believes in Him or not. God of the Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism people is the same ONE, though they deny Him and though He does not Converse with them. |
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“Our God is that God Who is alive even now as He was alive before. He speaks even now as He used to speak before. And even now He hears as He heard before. It is a false notion that in these times He only hears but does not speak. On the contrary, He hears and also speaks. All His Attributes are eternal and everlasting.
None of His Attributes is in abeyance, nor will it ever be.
He alone is the One without any associate; He has no son, nor has He any wife. He alone is Peerless and there is no one like Him. And He is the One Who is unique in that none of His Attributes are exclusively possessed by anyone beside Him. He has no equal. He does not share His attributes with anyone. None of His powers is less than perfect. He is near, yet far and He is far, yet near. He can reveal Himself to Ahl-e-Kashf .
He has no body, nor any shape. He is above all, but it cannot be said that there is anything beneath Him. He is on ‘Arsh, but it can’t be said that He is not on the earth. He is the sum total of all Perfect Attributes and He is the Manifestation of every True Praise. He is the source of all that is Good and encompasses all Powers and He is the source of all forms of Beneficence.
He is the One to Whom everything returns. He is the Lord of all the realms. He possesses every Perfection and is free from all defects, imperfections and weakness. It is His sole prerogative that all those who belong to the earth as well as all those who belong to the heavens should worship Him.
Nothing is impossible for Him. All souls and their potentialities and all particles and their potentials are His and only His creation. Nothing comes into existence without Him. He reveals Himself through His Powers, His Omnipotence and His Signs. We can attain Him only through Him.
He always reveals His Being to the righteous and shows them His Omnipotence—and this is the only means by which He is recognized and the path He favours is recognized.
He sees without physical eyes and hears without physical ears and speaks without a physical tongue.
Likewise it is His work to bring a thing into existence from nothingness. For example, in dreams you see how He creates a whole world without matter and shows you every mortal and nonexistent being as having existence. Thus are all His Powers.
Ignorant is he who denies His Powers. Blind is he who has no knowledge of His profound and inconceivable Powers. He can, and does everything that He intends to, except those which are at variance with His Glory or which are in conflict with His Promises. He is unique in His Being, in His Attributes, in His Actions and in His Powers.”
Pages 12-15 “The Will” By Mirza Ghulam Ahmad-The Promised Messiah
Friday Sermon: Signs of Truth: The Promised Messiah and Mahdi
Sermon Delivered by Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad (at) Head of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.
http://www.alislam.org/friday-sermon/index2.php?d=2014-03-21
The original sermon is in Urdu; following translations are also available. Please click the language of your choice by accessing the above link.
Urdu English Albanian Arabic Bengali Bosnian Bulgarian French German Indonesian Malayalam Russian Sindhi Swahili Tamil Turkish
Synopsis:
English
God has appointed knowledge and understanding as the principal means of obtaining a true concept of Islam. Though there are other means for obtaining such knowledge, like fasting, Prayer, supplication and carrying out all the Divine commandments, the number of which exceeds six hundred, yet the knowledge of the Greatness of God and of His Unity and of His attributes of Glory and Beauty is basic for everything.
After this explanation Huzoor said that in two days InshaAllah the Jama’at will commemorate Masih e Maud Day on 23 March. On this occasion scholars and orators speak on the subject and mention God’s help and support for the Promised Messiah(as). It was a beautiful coincidence that Huzoor spoke today, two days prior, with reference to the same subject.
The Promised Messiah(as) further said: ‘Just as another Hadith relates the eclipse took place twice in the month of Ramadan. First in this country and the second time in America and it came to pass both times during the dates the Hadith refers to. Since at the time these eclipses took place, no one in the world except me claimed to be the Mahdi and Messiah and no one declared the eclipse to be a sign of him being the Mahdi like I did publishing hundreds of posters and pamphlets in Urdu, Persian and Arabic around the world, therefore this heavenly sign is designated to me.
Some foolish Maulwis write that Ghulam Dastgir did not give challenge of Mubahla and only invoked malediction upon the cruel. But I say that since he asked God’s verdict through my death and called me cruel then why did the malediction befall him? And why did God kill Ghulam Dastgir at a sensitive time when people anticipated Divine verdict, whereas he wished my death in his prayer so that he could prove to the world that just as a false Mahdi and Messiah had died through the malediction of Muhammad Tahir, this person died through my malediction.
Today 125 years have elapsed and the Jama’at is moving onwards and upwards. Will these people not have sense? Will our opponents not desist from their opposition? It is our prayer that may God give them sense and they accept the Imam of the age, the Promised Messiah(as). Because when God’s chastisement comes it seizes no matter how powerful one may be, it blows like dust and turns into cinders! May they understand and recognise the truth.
Death of Sister Latifa Ilyas Sahiba in USA.
The viewers are advised to visit the link given below to know the context of the discussion and then form their own independent and sincere opinion.
http://anaivethinker.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/how-i-became-an-atheist/comment-page-1/#comment-129
paarsurrey | April 2, 2014 at 11:03 am
@ anaivethinker | April 1, 2014 at 9:50 pm
“Do you think that rational argumentation is sufficient to determine which religion is true, if any?
-Brandon” Unquote
Reason is a bounty that the One-True-God has bestowed on us the human beings and it is common to everybody believers or non-believers. Some use it most while some don’t use it much. As one sees with eyes things that are physical and material; for inner reflection reason is sort of inner tool of seeing.
Reason of itself is blind; it always needs a conjugal partner to ascertain things. For things happened in the past reason needs history or archaeology etc., for the present one needs radio, television, newspaper and for future just a conjecture.
Human eyes cannot see things without light; human ear needs a medium to hear.
The conjugal partner of reason to find the one true God is Word of Revelation; neither science nor the scientific method. Science can only deal in the things material and physical; not even the spiritual things.
The one true God created everything physical, material and spiritual; and he is out of these realms or dimensions. He is everywhere with His attributes though.
With all its merits reason cannot lead one to certainty; the maximum reason can guide us to is that there should be a God; the Revelation leads one to certainty.
One should not believe in myths; myths could be reasoned out and that is very good.
Regards
I would like the viewers of Paarsurrey blog to access the following link to know the context of the dialogue and to form their own independent reasonable opinion:
PAARSURREY says:
March 27, 2014 at 6:27 pm
@JOHN ZANDE :March 27, 2014 at 11:52 am
“Tell me, Paar, what are “His attributes,” and how do you know?
NOTE: please don’t say the Qu’ran ” Unquote
I don’t know as to why one has an aversion to Quran.
What harm did it to the Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics/Humanists etc?
Anyway; for the attributes of One-True-God (Allah Tao Yahweh Ahura-Mazda Parmeshawara Eshawara) one may like to read below, no compulsion:
The way of life presented by Lao-tzu (6th century BC), a contemporary of Confucius, is known as Taoism.
In Taoism, eternal truth is embodied in a being known as Tao whose attributes are spiritual and holy rather than material. Tao can be aptly defined as a personification of eternal virtues. They are precisely the same attributes as ascribed to God in Islam and other Divinely revealed religions. Taoism teaches man to completely submit to Truth (Tao), and to strive to modulate Tao. Tao is the model, and Taoism is the way to gain nearness to this model.
The same is the treatment in the Holy Quran regarding the relationship between God and man:
The hues of God! And who is more beautiful in hues than God?—and Him alone do we worship. 2:139
In Islam God is described and introduced through His attributes and the goal set for Muslims is to emulate them to modulate their lives.
The description of Tao, presented by Lao-tzu, is quite similar to the attributes of God mentioned in the Quran. He writes:
‘The great Tao is vast. He is on the left and He is on the right. All creatures depend upon Him, and the care of them tires Him not. He brings creation to completion, without seeking reward. He provides for all His creation, but requires nothing for Himself, so He may be considered small. All creatures turn to Him for their needs, yet He keeps nothing for Himself, thus He may be named ‘the Supreme’. He does not consider Himself great and because of this He is truly Great.’
Again we have another description:
‘Looked for but not visible, such a Being may be colorless. Listened for but not heard, such a Being may be called Silent. Grasped for but not caught, such may be called Concealed. No one can comprehend the ultimate source of these three qualities, but they are found in one Being. Though not luminous yet below Him there is no darkness. Being infinite He cannot be described. All His shapes keep returning to nothingness, thus we can say He is Shapeless; His image is without form. He is beyond comprehension (being the rarest of things). Try to reach His beginning, no beginning can be seen. Seek His end, no end can be perceived. Therefore, follow the ancient ways and improve your present.’
Also, in another verse the description of Tao runs as follows:
‘He is indivisible and His true nature cannot be grasped. All creation originates from Him. He existed before heaven and earth were created. He is One and alone without form or sound. He exists independently without any support. Nothing changes in Him. He is in constant motion, but never tires. He can be called the Begetter of the universe.’
The description of Tao given in the above passages is also found in different verses of the Quran, which when read together, reproduce everything covered by the above quotes. The image of God thus described in the Holy Quran, is summed up by the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, the late Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) of Qadian (India), in the following words:
‘He is near yet far, distant yet close… He is highest of high, yet it cannot be said that there is anyone below Him farther than He. He is in heaven, but it cannot be said that He is not on Earth. He combines in Himself all the most perfect attributes and manifests the virtues which are truly worthy of praise.’
It is pertinent to note that Chinese philosophy had its roots in religion, but with the passage of time its religious origin was obscured. Its followers adhered to the philosophy itself but thought it unnecessary to have any direct link with the source which had nourished it in the past. Consequently, the image of God was gradually impersonalised and the followers of Tao ceased to cultivate a personal relationship with Him as a Supreme Conscious Living Being.
“Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth” Mirza Tahir Ahmad
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_4.html
Regards
PAARSURREY says:
March 27, 2014 at 9:44 pm
@JOHN ZANDE : March 27, 2014 at 11:52 am
“We’ve already proven that Mo” Unquote
When and whence and who proved it?
Please
PAARSURREY says:
March 27, 2014 at 9:54 pm
@N℮ÜҐ☼N☮☂℮Ṧ : March 27, 2014 at 8:17 pm
Quote
“even in the coldest day, drops of sweat would fall from his forehead”
“at the moment of inspiration, anxiety pressed upon the Prophet, and his countenance was troubled”
“the muscles between his neck and shoulders were trembling”
Mohammed: “The Revelation is always brought to me by an angel — sometimes the angel appears to me in the shape of a human and speaks to me.” Unquote
Please quote from Quran where this is mentioned.
Will you? Please
PAARSURREY says:
March 27, 2014 at 11:45 am
People want God to become a toy for their imagination, and keep changing His attributes like an impersonator (God forbid) so that everybody’s fancy should be satisfied.
It is unfortunate indeed that people have not truly recognized their God. (al-Hajj 22:75)
Do try to understand that the less subtle a thing, the easier it can be observed through physical senses, and the more subtle it is, the harder it is for the physical senses to experience it. It is for this reason that when we try to learn about subtle things we have to depend on their properties and their behavior, rather than on direct observation.
How then is it possible for God—Who is not only Himself the most Subtle Being but is also the Creator of every subtle thing—to be seen by our physical eyes?
The objection of the critics that they will not believe in God until they see Him with their eyes is, therefore, absurd. It would imply that the critic either believes God to be a corporeal being, or at least wants God to assume a corporeal form so that he can be absolutely sure by seeing Him with his own eyes.
But the trouble is that there are millions of blind people in this world. Would they too not have the right to demand that God should assume some other material form so that they may taste, smell or feel Him? Does this not amount to ridiculing God? How shameful for a man who professes to have a mind and a heart!
If someone says that he would not believe in God unless he sees Him with his own eyes, all I should say is that if God could be seen with one’s eyes, He would not be worth believing at all. This is because in such case many of His other attributes would be falsified. He is Incorporeal, for instance, but in this case He would become corporeal. He is Infinite but would become finite and so on and so forth.
Moreover, if God were to adopt a corporeal and finite form for your sake, what is there to guarantee that you would not reject Him saying that you do not believe in a corporeal and finite God?
O God, how very Holy, Adorable and Perfect You are! Each attribute of Yours is guarded by another of Your attributes. When anyone attacks any one of Your attributes, Your other attributes—like vigilant and dutiful sentries—put such a person to shame.
We have seen how a critic tried to create doubt concerning God’s attribute of being Hidden, but His attributes of being Incorporeal and Infinite came forward at once and did away with the objection.
The Beauty of God lies in His being Hidden from our physical eyes and yet being apparent to us; He is Subtle but remains more evident and perceptible than material things. Unfortunate indeed is he who does not comprehend this subtle truth, for he stands on the brink of disaster.
Pages 12-14
“Our God” by Mirza Bashir Ahmad
Regards
PAARSURREY says:
March 27, 2014 at 12:08 pm
@JOHN ZANDE says: March 27, 2014 at 11:52 am
Don’t be angry please.
The original post did not offer any scientific reasoning.
Did it ?
The OP was also a form of hermeneutics and also apologetics of an Atheist?
PAARSURREY says:
March 27, 2014 at 2:58 pm
@JOHN ZANDE says: March 27, 2014 at 11:52 am
“hermeneutics”
I believe in both religion as well as science both revolving in their own orbits with quite harmony like the sun and the moon.
Religion is a bigger circle informing us when there was no life, and when there will be no life; in between is our present; it guides us in it.
Science is a tool for our present dealing in a limited circle; does not cover the whole of our life.
It is the wish of my atheist friends to pitch it against religion; but their combatant denies accepting this challenge. Science has specific subjects it deals in; none is allocated for search for God or His attributes. Please don’t try to put this heavy burden on this mule.
Science had never existed if prior to it there would have not been the hermeneutics or the languages.
If one is against the languages, poetry; some other forms related to it; only robots have been needed, not the human beings.
I think you agree with it.
Don’t you?
Please have a little heart for the differing voice; it is not personal for anybody.
Regards
Please click the following link to get the context of the discussion.
http://www.is-there-a-god.info/blog/comments/belief/#comment-8876
paarsurrey
MAR 25, 2014 @ 23:05:55
@unkleE :MAR 21, 2014 @ 03:22:18
Quote : “Hi paarsurrey, how are you going?
You have built this comment around the statement that to know God, we need a revealed book. What you say raises three questions in my mind:
1. Must God reveal himself through a book? Could he ever do it some other way?
2. How do we know which book is the truest revelation of God?
3. How would you propose to discuss these things? If, for example, you simply quoted the Koran and I quoted the Bible, we would get nowhere. So how else can we discuss?
Thanks.” Unquote
Paarsurrey says:
Hi friend
I am fine.
“The statement that to know God, we need a revealed book”
I think I did not literally make that statement. Well, I don’t object if one has got that understanding from the post.
unkleE : “to know God, we need a revealed book”
Paarsurrey: To know God and as to how his attributes work; His Word is most useful for that purpose.
I think you also agree with me on this point.
Don’t you?
I try to answer to your other questions below:
1. unkleE :“Must God reveal himself through a book?
Paarsurrey: I think you agree that God revealed Himself on Moses and Jesus; and a Jew or Christian cannot deny that.
Perhaps you want to know from me as to why He did manifest in this way.
Since the One-True-God (Allah Yahweh Ahura-Mazda Parmeshawara Eshawara) is only attributive; He is not a physical or spiritual being that we could see Him with our physical eyes; though we can see his attributes working behind everything in Nature, in silence.
Yet it has always been primarily His communication or Converse through which He had manifested to human beings. Hence the importance of the spoken Word of Revelation which is verbal when revealed and also secured in writing, in the book form, is the most important source of guidance that leads to Him; it can never be over-emphasized.
Nature manifests Him silently but the Word speaks of Him loudly.
unkleE : “Could he ever do it some other way?”
Paarsurrey: Yes; He could manifest Himself in diverse ways; and nobody could limit the ways of his manifestations; yet He cannot be limited by anybody or forced by anybody to change His ways:
[35:44] …………………………….. But thou wilt never find any change in the way of Allah; nor wilt thou ever find any alteration in the way of Allah.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=35&verse=43
For one; all truthful revelation from the One-True-God is to be believed; be it of the past, present and or future; be it on Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad etc; all is to be believed; being from the same source of one God.
2. unkleE: How do we know which book is the truest revelation of God?
Paarsurrey:
a. By comparative study
b. And the reasonable inner-evidence of the Word Revealed according to the attributes of the One-True-God. We could do that; not at all difficult to discern.
3. unkleE: How would you propose to discuss these things? If, for example, you simply quoted the Koran and I quoted the Bible, we would get nowhere.
Paarsurrey: I think you have observed me quoting from the revelations of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad in this connection; I don’t think it will pose a problem even now.
These quotes should not depict simply the authority of God; but the reason/wisdom content in the same must reflect the attribute of God being All-Wise. The quotes must therefore be full of evident reason and wisdom. The gist of the reason must exist there.
It is not a perfect Book if it needs external reasons to be provided; that portion which is devoid of reason must not be from Him.
Nobody is entitled to put words into God’s mouth; He is all-knowing.
Does it help?
What is your thinking on your three questions?
Regards
http://www.is-there-a-god.info/blog/comments/belief/#comment-8878
paarsurrey
MAR 26, 2014 @ 11:53:30
@unkleE: MAR 26, 2014 @ 06:54:25
“if we discuss the revelations we each believe in, how can we draw any conclusions? ”
I think I said that I believe all truthful Word revealed from the One-True-God on His prophets messengers; I even mentioned names of some of them.
I don’t see any problem.
“unless we already have some truth outside the books by which to judge their truth”
If the revelation is truthful; it would have inner truthful evidences also.
“We would need some criteria by which to make our comparisons”
I mentioned reasonable criteria.
“I was using historical and scientific learning”
People write history differently; it is not 100% correct. There was a period when there existed no written history; Truth existed even then.
Science is only a child of the yesterday and works in the things physical and material; Religion guides in ethical, moral and spiritual realms; both work in different spheres. Science cannot prove or disprove important subjects of religion like existence of God.
This is what I think; others could think differently
Regard
syzygyastro has started a hub on the above topic at HubPages which could be viewed at the following link:
http://syzygyastro.hubpages.com/hub/Exactly-Who-or-What-do-We-Really-Worship
Paarsurrey has contributed the following post on the topic:
paarsurrey wrote:
quoting from the hub/post:
“But as far as the texts of some religions are concerned, especially Judaism and Islam, the making of any image of anything is frowned upon to say the least.”
Moses forbade making any idols to worship:
Deuteronomy 5:8
8“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
http://biblehub.com/niv/deuteronomy/5.htm
Quran also mentions it at many places not to worship idols:
[29:17] And remember Abraham when he said to his people, ‘Worship Allah and fear Him. That is better for you if you understand.
[29:18] ‘You only worship idols beside Allah, and you forge a lie. Those whom you worship beside Allah have no power to provide sustenance for you. Then seek sustenance from Allah, and worship Him, and be grateful to Him. Unto Him will you be brought back.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.p
The concept of worship is to inculcate the attributes of the One-True-God by those who worship Him; the attributes have no physical form and making them physical does not help in any way.
yzygyastro wrote:
Today we have plenty of idols including others like powerful figures, rock stars, movie stars and the like. The overall time consuming activity of most people in the developed and developing world is money and there is a warning in the NT in regard to the worship of two masters. See Matthew 6: 24,25 and also Luke 16:13
Paarsurrey says:
Actually with Christianity it started as soon as they deviated from the real path of Jesus and the Christians started following the seed of the Anti-Christ I mean Paul and the Church- his associate; they carved Trinity out of the thin air ; and then idols and statues followed, very much against the elaborate teachings of Moses and Jesus.
Did Jesus make any statue or idol himself or ever instructed other to make one?
A poem in Persian written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Messiah, translated in English from his renowned book “The Brahin-E- Ahmadiyya” for the viewers of this blog:
Page-17 from the book:
I commented on the blog < http://agnophilo.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/15-questions-for-evolutionists-response/#comments> and then a discussion ensued; the same is given here-under for the viewers of this blog.
paarsurrey says:Science is not designed to tackle everything in life; scientific method is valid only for the things physical and spiritual; beyond that it is just blind.
The one true God is neither physical nor spiritual; He is attributive.
paarsurrey says:One could see that science has a special branch for every field that comes in its scope; science has no specific field for finding the one true God. Please mention a text-book of science and the scientific tools used for it.
One will find none.
Hunt 4 Truth says:I didn’t ever see a description of God like the one above before (“The one true God is neither physical nor spiritual; He is attributive.”).
paarsurrey says:Your comment is awaiting moderation.
All physical and spiritual things have been created by the one true God; He says it and there is no other valid claimant:
[29:45] Allah created the heavens and the earth in accordance with the requirements of wisdom. In that surely is a Sign for the believers.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=29&verse=44
He says that He is attributive; neither physical nor spiritual:
[59:25] He is Allah, the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner. His are the most beautiful names*. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Him, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=59&verse=24
* attributes
Hunt 4 Truth says:Thanks for putting this together. It really covers a lot of information without getting very complicated.
I think scientists will eventually be able to create complex organisms from elements (inorganic material). I can’t predict how of course. I am just fairly sure that the creator created by natural laws and that He always will work in ways that make Him thus a mysterious supernatural force that is undetectable using what we have to work with to “see” and “hear” Him.
paarsurrey 