Posts Tagged ‘Archaeology’

History creates no facts

November 26, 2015
Post #60

History creates no facts it only provides opinions of the historians.
Regards

Post #63

Thanks for agreeing with one of the aspect of my post.
I agree with the support that archaeology provides to history/historians; it also shows how poor history/historian would be without that. Nevertheless, events are more than that, and that even both of them combined cannot cover to make a fact.
Regards

Post #64

I am a humble ordinary person, I am neither proud nor I get impressed with those who are proud.
Regards

Post #66
Paarsurrey wrote:

Regards

ReligiousForums.com

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/scientists-or-historians-specialists-in-their-fields-might-be-quacks-in-religion.181936/page-3#post-4520877

Archaeologists don’t have list of persons existed in the world since inception

April 6, 2014

The viewers should access the following link to know the context of the discussion; and only then one should form one’s own sincere and independent opinion.
http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/comment-page-1/#comment-13846

PAARSURREY says:
April 6, 2014 at 5:22 pm

@JOHN ZANDE says:April 5, 2014 at 5:55 pm

“You seemed to imply archaeology has supported the Qur’an, whereas it clearly demolishes all claims made in the Pentateuch. What are you talking about? What has it supported? Are you, or are you not conceding Abraham and Moses were not historical characters, as modern archaeology has concluded? Please name these archaeologists you’re talking about and cite what papers have been published on their findings.” Unquote

Archaeology excavates sites; cities and or places; in this case they excavated sites mentioned in the Bible (not mentioned in Quran); if they don’t find any such cities or places , then they imply from it that the persons mentioned in the Bible also might have not existed.

It is not that they excavated the sites to necessarily find names of Abraham or Moses written on a rock.

And definitely they don’t have a list of persons that existed in the world from the date of inception to verity from it names of Abraham or Moses.

I don’t know why you cannot get it.

Do you get it? Please

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/comment-page-1/#comment-13849

PAARSURREY says:
April 6, 2014 at 5:37 pm

@JOHN ZANDE says:April 4, 2014 at 5:11 pm
“I think you’re granting far too much leeway here to people’s beliefs. The simple fact is the Pentateuch is the only source for this god: the god of Abraham and Moses. Take the Pentateuch away and there is NO Abrahamic god. I’m not at all interested in peoples different (later) interpretations of what this god is. I dismiss it at the Pentateuch. Period.” Unquote

I think you have little information about Quran/Islam/Muhammad; we Muslim have nothing to do with “Pentateuch”.

Muhammad received Revelation directly from the One-True-God; our belief is not based on what you describe as “Pentateuch”.

I don’t know as to why you don’t get it? Please

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/yahwehs-dreadful-power-problem-3/comment-page-1/#comment-13854

PAARSURREY says:
April 6, 2014 at 10:23 pm

I think it is you who mentioned of some consensus of the archaeologists.
Didn’t you?

I always take Quran the only 100% accurate source of knowledge; none else.

Regards

Quran does not claim to be a book of history or archaeology

January 3, 2014

John Zande an Atheist has written a post titled “How Those Who’re Paid to Know, Know The Pentateurch is Historical Fiction” that could be viewed at the following link:

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/how-we-know-the-pentateurch-is-historical-fiction-11/

Paarsurrey has re-blogged it with comments;while discussion with John Zande is going on ARKENATEN joined in to derail the discussion without adding any useful substance on the points raised in the discussion. To separate it from the focal discussion; it is given here.

ARKENATEN says:
January 2, 2014 at 6:42 pm
@paarsurrey
“Please quote from Quran where it has been mentioned that Islam is based exclusively on the historical validity of the Pentateuch. I don’t agree with you”

I would never presume to answer for John, but my own take is quite simple.

It matters not whether you agree or disagree. Your opinion is just that. Opinion. It does not alter the facts.

In the Qu’ran, the Patriarchs are mentioned. Abraham for one.
The Qu’ran is considered the revealed word of Allah via the angel Gabrielle to Mohammed.
The Pentateuch is now regarded by all except idiots as fiction. This is based of evidence.
Ergo, Muslims who continue to regard the Qu’ran the literal revealed word of god are either uniformed, willfully ignorant or…idiots.

Which one are you?

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 7:57 pm
How would you define the word “idiot”? Please don’t quote from a dictionary; give your own definition.

ARKENATEN says:
January 2, 2014 at 9:14 pm
I refuse to argue semantics with you.
The Pentateuch is regarded by almost every recognized archaeologist and most recognized scholars around the world as fiction.

As the characters (Patriarchs) featured in the Pentateuch are also featured in the Qura’n then the Qu’ran is also a work of fiction.

My definition of an idiot in context of this dialogue would be one who is unable to recognize the truth in these statements.
Someone like you, in actual fact.

Arkenaten wrote:

Moses in the Pentateuch s the same character as the Moses in the Qu’ran.
Ergo, the Quran is fiction and for you to deny this suggests you are an idiot.

PAARSURREY says:
January 3, 2014 at 4:10 pm
There is no restriction in joining Atheism on ignorant and idiots; perhaps there are already some out there or many if not all; I think so.

Quran does not claim to be a book of history or archaeology; if you think it does; then please quote from it.

ARKENATEN says:
January 3, 2014 at 4:58 pm
Quran does not claim to be a book of history or archaeology; if you think it does; then please quote from it.

I agree with John, the first sentence of your comment makes no sense.
However, this part I will reply to…

While you are absolutely correct that the Qu’ran makes no claims to being a history book or one on archaeology, it is claimed to be the inerrant word of your god, Allah, as passed on by Gabriel to Mohammed.

This leaves us with a rather interesting conundrum.

A) Either your god imparted false information concerning the Patriarchs and the Pentateuch or

B) Mohammed ……

There can only be one answer. Which one do you choose, A or B?

PAARSURREY says:
January 3, 2014 at 6:34 pm
Quran in the very beginning make it known that it is a book for guidance to humanity to the God-fearing and as such it should be referred to in the ethical, moral and spiritual matters. Why persist to use it otherwise?
Besides the historians or the archaeologists always do search for specific sites; might be mentioned in the Bible so the conclusion they drew was specific for Bible; it has no bearing on Quran whatsoever. It isJohn Zande’s oblique imagination or his ambition that he included Quran/Islam or Muslim in his post.
If he is a man of reason he should correct his stance.

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:39 am
No one is disputing the Qu’ran is different to the Bible. Neither is anyone disputing archaeology where it pertains solely to the bible.

The specific references the Qu’ran pertain to the characters found in the Pentateuch: namely Moses & Abraham.

Therefore, if these characters featured in the Bible are the same as those featured in the Qu’ran then it stands to reason that as the Biblical characters are now regarded as fictional then so are the same characters in the Qu’ran.

While it is acknowledged that the original word as supposedly lost by the Israelites the God of the Pentateuch, Yahweh, is the same god of the Qu’ran, Allah, who is the god of Moses and Abraham.

Whether the story has been changed is immaterial, the characters are the same, and the characters are fictional.

Thus the Qu’ran is a story about fictional characters.

PAARSURREY says:
January 4, 2014 at 4:04 pm
The Archaeologist were not digging locations for God or Abraham or Moses; they must be excavating sites mentioned in the Bible; if they did not find anything in them that is related only to the book that mentioned them that is Bible.

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 8:40 pm
You are missing the point.
There is no archaeological evidence to support the biblical characters and events in the Pentateuch. None.This is acknowledged by almost every recognized archaeologist and scholar on the planet.

Simply put, there was no factual information about Moses or Abraham that could have possibly been passed on to Mohammed as these characters were narrative constructs. The Israelites made them up in other words.

This means that Mohammed ……

PAARSURREY says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:10 pm
Did they, the Archaeologists, excavate the graves to find bones of Moses or Abraham?

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:45 pm
How can anyone excavate the bones of a fictional character?
Let me state this one more time. Moses and Abraham are fictional characters. The Israelites made them up. They have admitted they made them up.

Thus Mohammed …….
Do you understand?

PAARSURREY says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:54 pm
Then why excavate for nothing?

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 10:23 pm
They did not excavate for nothing, they excavated in an attempt to verify the biblical account.
However, there is no evidence to support the accounts in the Pentateuch.

Thus, once more. The Pentateuch os fiction and so are the characters. Thus , Mohammed ………

PAARSURREY says:
January 5, 2014 at 12:50 am
So they were not looking for Moses and or Abraham there; that is only Atheists’ imagination. They were also not looking for Torah there?

PAARSURREY says:
January 5, 2014 at 5:02 pm
Wikipedia has listed and recorded the important excavations and surveys conducted from the period 1840-2007; none of these sites is even once mentioned in Quran, so it has no specific relevance to Quran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

The research of Archaeologists Ze’ev Herzog and Finkelstein

July 29, 2013

I quote from Wikipedia.

“The Bible and archaeology

Main articles: The Bible and history and Biblical archaeology

According to one of the world’s leading biblical archaeologists, William G. Dever,

“Archaeology certainly doesn’t prove literal readings of the Bible…It calls them into question, and that’s what bothers some people. Most people really think that archaeology is out there to prove the Bible. No archaeologist thinks so.”[34] From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. William Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the “archeological revolution.” Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that’s very disturbing to some people.[35]

Dever also wrote:

Archaeology as it is practiced today must be able to challenge, as well as confirm, the Bible stories. Some things described there really did happen, but others did not. The biblical narratives about AbrahamMosesJoshua and Solomon probably reflect some historical memories of people and places, but the ‘larger than life’ portraits of the Bible are unrealistic and contradicted by the archaeological evidence….[36] I am not reading the Bible as Scripture… I am in fact not even a theist. My view all along—and especially in the recent books—is first that the biblical narratives are indeed ‘stories,’ often fictional and almost always propagandistic, but that here and there they contain some valid historical information…[37]

Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze’ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.[38][39]

Professor Finkelstein, who is known as “the father of biblical archaeology”, told the Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative on the Exodus, the Jews’ wandering in Sinai or Joshua’s conquest of Canaan. On the alleged Temple of Solomon, Finkelstein said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.[40] Professor Yoni Mizrahi, an independent archaeologist who has worked with the International Atomic Energy Agency, agreed with Israel Finkelstein.[40]

Regarding the Exodus of Israelites from Egypt, Egyptian archaeologist Zahi Hawass said:

“Really, it’s a myth,”… “This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.”[41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible

Paarsurrey says:

I have gone through the above; these observations of the Archaeologists are about the narratives of the Bible. Quran never supported the Jews about the authorship of Bible. We always maintained that Bible is not authored by the one true God or by Moses; it is written by sinful scribes who at time exaggerated things and at other times they were fictional and added things or removed them.

Quran does not mention the cities and places which were under study of the Archaeologists. Quran categorically mentions that Jews tampered with the Bible to the extent that new Word of Revelation was essential, hence the advent of truthful Muhammad.

This study rather adds to the faith of Muslims that Quran is authored by the one true God; and its narratives don’t belong to Bible.

 

The reality of Archaeological consensus: Moses

July 23, 2013
  • “How one can travel in future time and place? Any idea?” Paarsurrey your concepts of time are based on modern precepts, obviously not those at the time the Quran was penned/envisioned

    You see this is the problem with any story, with ‘time’ it gets lost in translation with old and new metaphors and belief constructs being intermixed at one’s interpretative convenience. As I’m sure you have no memory of being around at the time the Quran first appeared, I’m sure you will agree that it is difficult to substantiate with any ounce of truth or proof. And don’t start telling me there is any archaeological evidence of pure hearsay.

    I’ve studied archaeology at university, and it is a very vague pursuit at best based on probabilities. It is difficult to prove anything beyond a moment ago, even with radio-carbon dating. Getting exact dates and facts is still nigh on impossible, unless of course you happen to find a coin with a date on it, which for any archaeologist is still the most important find.

    • Hi Isshaiya

      Quoting words from your post:
      “And don’t start telling me there is any archaeological evidence of pure hearsay. I’ve studied archaeology at university, and it is a very vague pursuit at best based on probabilities. It is difficult to prove anything beyond a moment ago, even with radio-carbon dating. Getting exact dates and facts is still nigh on impossible, unless of course you happen to find a coin with a date on it, which for any archaeologist is still the most important find.”

      I think it is friend john zande and friend Arkenaten who got impressed by the Archaeological finds; please tell them of your experience with the Archaeology at University..

      They should revise their thought about Archaeological finds and the shaky building of their thoughts erected on them.

    • Careful, i can hear you ;)

      To correct your statement: we get impressed by the complete ABSENCE of archaeological finds supporting the stories contained in the bible. Big difference.

    • I don’t think that even complete absence of Archaeological finds do not mean that Moses did not exist at all; it will only mean that there is a possibility that Moses did not set his foot on the place where such Archaeological works/investigation were conducted, not more than that.

      I think friend Ishaiya should come forward and give her opinion on the matter.

      There is no harm if other Archaeologists reading these posts/blogs should give their opinion; it is just a friendly discussion; no embarrassment to anybody is intended.

      OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

      Paarsurrey adds:

      The views may click the dates of the comments; that will take them to the blog of JOHN ZANDE where the discussion is going on.