Posts Tagged ‘‎Quran’

Quran does not claim to be a book of history or archaeology

January 3, 2014

John Zande an Atheist has written a post titled “How Those Who’re Paid to Know, Know The Pentateurch is Historical Fiction” that could be viewed at the following link:

http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/how-we-know-the-pentateurch-is-historical-fiction-11/

Paarsurrey has re-blogged it with comments;while discussion with John Zande is going on ARKENATEN joined in to derail the discussion without adding any useful substance on the points raised in the discussion. To separate it from the focal discussion; it is given here.

ARKENATEN says:
January 2, 2014 at 6:42 pm
@paarsurrey
“Please quote from Quran where it has been mentioned that Islam is based exclusively on the historical validity of the Pentateuch. I don’t agree with you”

I would never presume to answer for John, but my own take is quite simple.

It matters not whether you agree or disagree. Your opinion is just that. Opinion. It does not alter the facts.

In the Qu’ran, the Patriarchs are mentioned. Abraham for one.
The Qu’ran is considered the revealed word of Allah via the angel Gabrielle to Mohammed.
The Pentateuch is now regarded by all except idiots as fiction. This is based of evidence.
Ergo, Muslims who continue to regard the Qu’ran the literal revealed word of god are either uniformed, willfully ignorant or…idiots.

Which one are you?

PAARSURREY says:
January 2, 2014 at 7:57 pm
How would you define the word “idiot”? Please don’t quote from a dictionary; give your own definition.

ARKENATEN says:
January 2, 2014 at 9:14 pm
I refuse to argue semantics with you.
The Pentateuch is regarded by almost every recognized archaeologist and most recognized scholars around the world as fiction.

As the characters (Patriarchs) featured in the Pentateuch are also featured in the Qura’n then the Qu’ran is also a work of fiction.

My definition of an idiot in context of this dialogue would be one who is unable to recognize the truth in these statements.
Someone like you, in actual fact.

Arkenaten wrote:

Moses in the Pentateuch s the same character as the Moses in the Qu’ran.
Ergo, the Quran is fiction and for you to deny this suggests you are an idiot.

PAARSURREY says:
January 3, 2014 at 4:10 pm
There is no restriction in joining Atheism on ignorant and idiots; perhaps there are already some out there or many if not all; I think so.

Quran does not claim to be a book of history or archaeology; if you think it does; then please quote from it.

ARKENATEN says:
January 3, 2014 at 4:58 pm
Quran does not claim to be a book of history or archaeology; if you think it does; then please quote from it.

I agree with John, the first sentence of your comment makes no sense.
However, this part I will reply to…

While you are absolutely correct that the Qu’ran makes no claims to being a history book or one on archaeology, it is claimed to be the inerrant word of your god, Allah, as passed on by Gabriel to Mohammed.

This leaves us with a rather interesting conundrum.

A) Either your god imparted false information concerning the Patriarchs and the Pentateuch or

B) Mohammed ……

There can only be one answer. Which one do you choose, A or B?

PAARSURREY says:
January 3, 2014 at 6:34 pm
Quran in the very beginning make it known that it is a book for guidance to humanity to the God-fearing and as such it should be referred to in the ethical, moral and spiritual matters. Why persist to use it otherwise?
Besides the historians or the archaeologists always do search for specific sites; might be mentioned in the Bible so the conclusion they drew was specific for Bible; it has no bearing on Quran whatsoever. It isJohn Zande’s oblique imagination or his ambition that he included Quran/Islam or Muslim in his post.
If he is a man of reason he should correct his stance.

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:39 am
No one is disputing the Qu’ran is different to the Bible. Neither is anyone disputing archaeology where it pertains solely to the bible.

The specific references the Qu’ran pertain to the characters found in the Pentateuch: namely Moses & Abraham.

Therefore, if these characters featured in the Bible are the same as those featured in the Qu’ran then it stands to reason that as the Biblical characters are now regarded as fictional then so are the same characters in the Qu’ran.

While it is acknowledged that the original word as supposedly lost by the Israelites the God of the Pentateuch, Yahweh, is the same god of the Qu’ran, Allah, who is the god of Moses and Abraham.

Whether the story has been changed is immaterial, the characters are the same, and the characters are fictional.

Thus the Qu’ran is a story about fictional characters.

PAARSURREY says:
January 4, 2014 at 4:04 pm
The Archaeologist were not digging locations for God or Abraham or Moses; they must be excavating sites mentioned in the Bible; if they did not find anything in them that is related only to the book that mentioned them that is Bible.

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 8:40 pm
You are missing the point.
There is no archaeological evidence to support the biblical characters and events in the Pentateuch. None.This is acknowledged by almost every recognized archaeologist and scholar on the planet.

Simply put, there was no factual information about Moses or Abraham that could have possibly been passed on to Mohammed as these characters were narrative constructs. The Israelites made them up in other words.

This means that Mohammed ……

PAARSURREY says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:10 pm
Did they, the Archaeologists, excavate the graves to find bones of Moses or Abraham?

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:45 pm
How can anyone excavate the bones of a fictional character?
Let me state this one more time. Moses and Abraham are fictional characters. The Israelites made them up. They have admitted they made them up.

Thus Mohammed …….
Do you understand?

PAARSURREY says:
January 4, 2014 at 9:54 pm
Then why excavate for nothing?

ARKENATEN says:
January 4, 2014 at 10:23 pm
They did not excavate for nothing, they excavated in an attempt to verify the biblical account.
However, there is no evidence to support the accounts in the Pentateuch.

Thus, once more. The Pentateuch os fiction and so are the characters. Thus , Mohammed ………

PAARSURREY says:
January 5, 2014 at 12:50 am
So they were not looking for Moses and or Abraham there; that is only Atheists’ imagination. They were also not looking for Torah there?

PAARSURREY says:
January 5, 2014 at 5:02 pm
Wikipedia has listed and recorded the important excavations and surveys conducted from the period 1840-2007; none of these sites is even once mentioned in Quran, so it has no specific relevance to Quran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

Ahmadi Muslims – want to change the world peacefully, which also appeals to democrats-‎to-the-core-persons in the West‎(and America)

July 11, 2009

http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/07/05/is-islam-really-america%e2%80%99s-second-‎largest-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16991‎

‎• 24. Demsci Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 9:38 am

Hello Paarsurrey, I was raised as a Protestant Christian, tried to live accordingly until ‎about my 21st birthday. But I could not dispel my doubts, which I had had all my life. So ‎I stopped going to church. I kept on searching, reading, and now I consider myself a ‎Darwinist. I consider Science the best way to help us find ever more of the Truth.‎
I am glad that there are Ahmadi Muslims who only want to change the world peacefully, ‎which appeals to a democrat-to-the-core-person like me.

‎• 25. paarsurrey Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

Hi friend Demsci

Thanks for your appreciation.‎
I congratulate you on being bold enough to leave Protestantism. They, the Protestants left ‎‎the simple and rational teachings of Jesus; and opted to follow the cunning Paul and ‎‎sinful scirbes of the Bible. If we see the real character, teachings, acts and Revelations ‎‎Jesus had from God Allah YHWH, we have to admit that he was one of the perfect men ‎‎that walked on Earth.

After when he survived death on Cross and he migrated to India; most unfortunately, his ‎‎enemies took over; they changed and tailored his teachings and also his acts according to ‎‎their own low motives. Jesus was not responsible for that changes made in his name;in ‎‎fact he had warned his follwers of this phenomenon.

I would say that the Man Jesus was a truthful Messenger Prophet of God Allah YHWH; ‎‎and hence his teachings consisting on his pure revelations were originally truthful. I ‎‎would suggest you to rediscover the perfect man Jesus; and follow him, if you can.Jesus ‎‎was not god and he never claimed to be one. The present Christianity has got nothing to ‎‎do with Jesus and persents only a mythical Jesus carved out of thin air by Paul and the ‎‎Church unauthorized.

If you still remain disgusted with the Bible; then you enjoy your life being a Darwinist; ‎‎but don’t oppose Jesus; a natural fruit of humanity and truthfulness. This is only a ‎‎brotherly advice; no compulsion.

Please concentrate on your new religion – your present abode of faith. You may present ‎‎merits of Darwinism if you so like and tell us as to how you cherish it. This may benefit ‎‎us, who hardly know anything about this religion; if it is a religion.

I understand that there have been many scientific changes in the theory Darwin ‎‎presented.What is your opinion about it?

You may present your interesting write-up as a separate topic in this forum for benefit of ‎‎us all; if the owners/moderators allow it.

All human beings are but a family; love for all, hatred for none.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Islam would be number one religion in the West (including America)‎

July 9, 2009

http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/07/05/is-islam-really-america%e2%80%99s-second-‎largest-religion/‎

‎16. paarsurrey Says:
July 9th, 2009 at 1:46 am ‎

Hi friends

I believe that Muslims numbers will increase as Muslims have more children than others ‎‎in the West. They pray five times a day and keep fasting in Ramadhan and perform Hajj; ‎‎this keeps them well knit and religious.

With the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908; the Promised Messiah and Imam ‎‎Mahdi (the peaceful Reformer of the Revealed Religions of the World) the scenario has ‎‎been changed; the peaceful teachings of Islam/Quran/Muhammad have been highlighted ‎‎by him; and under his banner all the religions would unite peacefully. He has come as a ‎‎successor of Muhammad, so his convincing, rational and logical arguments would do this ‎‎job as destined by God Allah YHWH.‎
The result would be opening of the hearts and minds of the West and others for ‎‎Islam/Quran/Muhammad; but there should be no worry for anybody as it would be done ‎‎peacefully; and this is what West wants.‎

So Islam would be number one religion this way in the West (including America), I ‎believe.

All humans are but a family; love for all, hatred for none.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim