Archive for the ‘Jesus did not and could not die a cursed death on Cross’ Category

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?No, it never happened.

April 28, 2019

Religious Forums

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/did-jesus-die-and-rise-from-the-dead.220049/page-31#post-6083786

#619 paarsurrey

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

No, it never happened.
One may like to read:
“Jesus In India:

by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, The Promised Messiah and Mahdi (as)

The treatise puts forward the view that Jesus survived crucifixion, left Judea and migrated eastward in order to continue his mission to the ‘Lost Tribes of Israel’, traveling through Persia and Afghanistan and eventually dying a natural and honourable death in Kashmir at an old age. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) applied textual analysis of both the Gospels and Islamic sources – the Quran and hadith – and also drew upon medical and historical material, including ancient Buddhist records, to argue his case.
Jesus In India | Islam Ahmadiyya

Regards

I can tell you one things . . . Christians can’t count“. Unquote
#620 paarsurrey

Please elaborate on one’s reasonable evidences/proofs from Religion as well as from science, if any.

Regards

#621 paarsurrey

One is exposing fallibility of Bahaullah, here, unnecessarily. Right, please?

Regards

Tonxxxxxxxx said: 
There is ample proof. There is much more to life than material senses, so no guess is needed, as it takes good logic and good reasoning.

The bible gives this option as being ‘Born Again’. That is someting that can be done in this life, if one so chooses.

Regards Tony

#622 paarsurrey

Last edited: Yesterday at 12:03 PM

I agree with one, your’s is a reasonable approach.

I understand that Bahaullah wrote something in favor of science, yet the Bahaism people prefer to follow him in blind-faith as if they are living in the abode of mythology. Don’t they, please?

Regards

How does one know of all/each of these things. Just guessing, please?

Regards

#646  paarsurrey

That does not make a myth into the reality. Please remain in the Myth-Land, if that is one’s choice. Right, please?

Regards

 

 

Discussion: What Did Jesus Teach?

July 25, 2013

Paarsurrey says:
One cannot get much from Bible about the teachings of Jesus; Bible was neither authored by Jesus nor dictated by him. Bible presents teachings of Paul. The truthful accounts of  life of Jesus and Mary are mentioned in Quran.

Finding Truth

This post is not going to be in the standard format. Instead of laying out what I think about a particular issue and then possibly getting into a discussion afterward, I really just want to ask a series of questions that I hope readers will answer in the comment section.

My background with Christianity is with a very fundamentalist variety that believes faith, grace, and works are all tightly woven together — each plays a necessary part in salvation. I’m much less familiar with more liberal versions of Christianity, and that’s what I’m hoping to learn more about in this discussion. So here are my questions:

  1. The New Testament speaks a lot about salvation. What exactly are Christians being saved from?
  2. In a similar vein, are non-Christians bound for a different fate than Christians? What will the afterlife be like for each?
  3. What does God/Jesus expect from us? Anything?
  4. Of…

View original post 63 more words

Jesus never attempted a suicidal death on Cross

January 22, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4701&p=91723#p91723

Wootah says:

Show me how you can pay off a debt of $100 with $1 and I’ll believe you.

Paarsurrey says:

How is this question related to divinity of Jesus or the trinity? Please elaborate.

Wootah says:

OK. I didn’t expect that response!
The whole thing about the Trinity is that no Christian wants to believe in the Trinity. No Christian said and decided God was one being with three personalities. No Christian would willing do this, why would we want to? Why would we want to willingly add to a concept of one God? It is close to saying there are 3 Gods, we can see that. Can you see that no Christian willingly accepts the Trinity at first glance or willingly wants to add 3 personalities to the nature of God? (You are probably amazed at this response so far.)

If you can comprehend that Christians do not arrive at the Trinity willingly then why do we believe in the Trinity?

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friends

I am shocked to note that the Catholics Protestants have been forced to accept Trinity by someone as you have stated and they are naturally not inclined and they must not accept Trinity. If they believe in one Creator – God Allah YHWH, they must not be forced to accept this superfluous creed invented by the cunning Paul or the clever Church. There is no compulsion in religion and it must not be forced on anyone against one’s free will.

I know that it was cunning Paul and the clever Church who first invented the creed that Jesus willingly accepted flogging, spitting by Jews on him and putting him on the cross; this makes Jesus doing suicide.

So my friend you don’t have to believe in this suicidal attempt of Jesus; as this was never the case. It were the Jews who forcibly put Jesus on the cross; but the loving Creator – God Allah YHWH, does not forsake his beloved ones, so against all odds He saved Jesus a cursed death on Cross.

After being delivered in near-dead position from the Cross Jesus was hurriedly taken to a tomb by his friends with underhand help of Pilate. There he was treated and when healed from the injuries on the cross he made good his escape to India along-with his mother Mary.
My friend neither Jesus nor any Catholic Protestant ever took loan of 100$; it is just one of the myriad imaginations of cunning Paul and the clever Church; please get out of this loan scenario; you don’t have to pay any loan. Just make good deeds and have good beliefs; and you will have your salvation.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

What if the Christians and or Christianity continue to grow ‎strong and prosper? They don’t represent Jesus; for sure‎

August 16, 2009

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/if-the-messiah-‎himself-were-to-return-he-would-fail-to-recognize-the-‎prevalent-christianity/#comments

The Janitor says:

It is true; Christianity has deteriorated as it seems ‎everyone thinks themself Christian. But believers in the ‎‎”The Way” continue to grow strong and prosper according to ‎God’s will and purpose. God bless.‎

Paarsurrey says:‎

Hi friend the Janitor (excuse me, I don’t know your name, ‎this is what I find on one of your post on your blog) of ‎http://37stories.wordpress.com:‎

It is very nice of you to acknowledge that the present ‎Christianity has deteriorated so much that it no more ‎represents the concepts and thought of Jesus and Mary.The ‎process of deterioration of Christianity started with the ‎cunning Paul’s untruthful proclaimation of being a disciple ‎of Jesus; while he never learnt a word even from Jesus. ‎Jesus was at that time traveling to India alonwith Mary his ‎mother. When Jesus got saved his life with the grace of God ‎Allah YHWH from a cursed death on cross; he took refuge in ‎India. He later died there and is buried in Mohallah ‎Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, India, according to some ‎traditions. Jesus died a natural and peaceful death in ‎Kashmir.‎

Jesus never founded any “Christianity”; he was a Jew who ‎followed Moses and he died as a Jew.‎

‎“Christianity” as the word popularly denotes was founded by ‎clever Paul and the sinful scribes; a joint venture started ‎with their own motives. It has got nothing to do with ‎Jesus.‎

I don’t mind if the Christians and or Christianity continue ‎to grow strong and prosper; but I don’t agree that it is ‎being done as willed and desired by Jesus. ‎

All human beings are just like a family; every one is to be ‎loved and respected and no one should be hated.‎

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

There cannot be any reality of Jesus’ raising from the physical dead

June 18, 2009

Markparker1 says:

Paar it’s not that modern LDS Prophets and Apostles are witnesses so much to the event of crucifiction, they did not witness that to my knowledge, but they witness to the reality of Christ being raised from the dead! That he lives.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend markparker1

Since Jesus did not die a cursed death on the Cross; so there cannot be any reality of Jesus’ raising from the physical dead. Joseph Smith or any other LDS people are therefore not correct in their witnessing that Jesus was raised from the dead or that he is physically or literally alive. Sorry, I don’t agree with this notion.

I love Jesus and Mary as I love Moses and his mother.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Had the sinful scribes of Gospels believed Jesus as god? They would have remained with Jesus even if killed by the Jews; Jesus after resurrection could make them alive from the dead in a matter of maximum three days

June 8, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

I think you are wrong to judge me. I have read the Old Testament and the New Testament from cover to cover.

Jesus did never read the New Testament; he read the Old Testament and he never asked any body to read the faulty New Testament prepared/collected/authored by his clever enemy Paul and the sinful discples who deserted Jesus when he was put on the Cross, and needed their support most.

They were hardly faithful to Jesus or belived in Jesus. Later, they eulogized Jesus and made him god, and their own thoughts as inspired by the Holy Ghost just to camoflouge their inner motives.

Had they belived Jesus as god; they would have happily remained with Jesus; at the most what would have happened to them; they would have been killed by the Jews or the Romans; and Jesus after resurrection only after hardly three days or less than that as per Bible, would have made them alive also from the dead.

But they never trutsted him as they knew he was no god; and could not make them alive from the dead.

One could see the game of the cunning Paul and the sinful scribes; if one just ponders over their superfluous witnessing.

As you requested and I allowed you to pray for me; so I think it is not good for you now to become angry for nothing.

Dialogue is always good for everybody; and exchange of views useful for peace. Why you become disappointed; have faith in Jesus and Mary and remain steadfast like them; they never were gods, alright, but they were steadfast with their Lord- God Allah YHWH.

You are supposed to love me; one who loves makes the contacts strong; so remain in contact with me, and I will also remain in contact with you, stroger than before.

You are a good friend; maybe sometimes your heart and mind gets opened for me, and you realize that you have not studied the Bible intently; neither its text nor its true context.

So it is for mutual benefit to keep a closer contact between us. You lose nothing; yet you may gain something.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned truthfully and rationally in Quran.

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

Note:

The above is in response to comments of Rev Jason Thurwanger, yourbrotherinchrist, by accessing here:
https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/jesus-escape-from-death-on-cross-was-a-miracle-it-was-no-ordinary-event/#comments

And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

June 7, 2009

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah, the Second Coming says:

Among the testimonies of the gospels which have reached us, is the following verse of Matthew: ‘And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.’ (See Matthew, chapter 24, verse 30).

The meaning of this verse is: Jesus (on whom be peace) says that a time will come when, from heaven, viz. as a result of the power of divine intervention, there would come into being knowledge, arguments and evidence which will invalidate the beliefs of Jesus’ divinity, his death on the Cross and his going up into heaven and coming again; and that heaven will bear witness against the lies of those who denied his being a true prophet, for example, the Jews; and who, on the other hand, regarded him, because of his crucifixion, as a man accursed, for the fact of his not having suffered death on the Cross and therefore of his not being accursed would be clearly established; that then all the nations of the earth, who had exaggerated or detracted from his true status would become greatly ashamed of their error; that, in the same age, when this fact would be established, people would see Jesus’ metaphorical descent to the earth,

i.e., in those very days the Promised Messiah, who would come in the power and spirit of Jesus, would appear with all the lustrous signs, and heavenly support and with the power and glory which would be recognised.

The verse — further explained — means that God’s destiny has made the personality of Jesus and fashioned the events of his life so as to cause some people to exaggerate, and others to minimize his status, i.e., there are people who have taken him out of the category of human beings, so much so that they say that he has not yet died and is sitting alive in heaven.

The people who have outrun these are those who say that, having died on the Cross and come to life again, he has gone up to heaven and become invested with all the powers of divinity; nay, he is God Himself. The other people are the Jews, who say that he was killed on the Cross and therefore (I take refuge with God for saying so) he is accursed for all time; he is doomed to be the object of perpetual wrath; God is displeased with him, and looks upon him as a hated enemy; that he is a liar and an impostor and (I take refuge with God for saying so) a Kafir, a rank unbeliever; that he is not from God.

This exaggeration and detraction were so unjust that it could not but be that God should clear His true prophet of these charges. The verse of the gospel mentioned before points to this fact. The statement that all the tribes of the earth would mourn, suggests that all those tribes to whom the description underlying the word ‘nation’ applies would mourn on that day; they would beat their breasts and cry, and great would be their mourning.

Here Christians should follow the verse in question with some attention; they should consider that when the verse contains the prophecy that all the nations would beat their breasts, how is it that they should have nothing to do with this mourning? Are they not a nation? When, in accordance with this verse, they are included among those who are the beaters of breasts, why do they not attend to their salvation? The verse clearly says that when the sign of Jesus would appear in heaven all the nations inhabiting the earth would mourn. So the man who says that his tribe would not mourn denies Jesus.

The people, however, who are yet small in number cannot have been the people hinted at in the prophecy; they are not fit to be described as a ‘nation’; and that, people or tribe are we; nay, ours is the only community which is outside the meaning and scope of this prophecy, for this community has yet only a few adherents to whom the word ‘nation’ or ‘tribe’ cannot be applied. Jesus, on the authority of divine inspiration, says that when a sign appears in the heavens all the people of the world who, on account of their numbers, would deserve to be described as a ‘tribe’ or ‘nation’ would beat their breasts; there would be no exception but a people small in number to whom the word ‘nation’ would not apply.

Neither Christians, nor Muslims, nor Jews, not yet any other denier, can keep out of this prophecy. Our Jama’at alone is outside its scope for they have just been sown as a seed by God. The word of a prophet can never fail. When the words contain the clear hint that every nation inhabiting the world would mourn, which of these people can claim to be outside their scope? Jesus admits of no exception in this verse. The group, however, which has not yet attained the size of a ‘tribe’ or a ‘nation’ is in any case an exception’ — viz. our Jama’at.

This prophecy has been clearly fulfilled in this age, for the truth which has now been discovered regarding Jesus is undoubtedly the cause of the mourning of all these tribes, for it has exposed the errors of all. The hue and cry of Christians over the divinity of Jesus changes into sighs of grief; the insistence of Muslims — day and night — that Jesus has gone up to the skies alive, changes into weeping and wailing; and as for the Jews, they lose everything.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

Did Joseph Smith believe that Jesus was God?

June 5, 2009

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend markparker1

I gather following points from you post:

1. Joseph Smith – my determination to ask of God …immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speakof this enemy which had seized upon me,…
2. A pillar of lightI saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air.
3. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
4. How can Joseph do anything but tell the truth about what happened, even if it offends Christian sects that believe in a Trinity, and perhaps perplexes you Paar,because it doesn’t fit with your understanding of Christianity and how that sits with Islam.
5. But the fear soon left me.
6. 33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do.
7. Did you read the link?

Frankly speaking; I did not read the link as I did not find like reading it as yet.

Presently, I would remain focussed on what you write to me. I am not offended; why should I?

I have noted some points from your post, the same have been jotted down by me above. I think I sent you another post and also published it here in this blog. Please read it.

I don’t find in the first or in the second vision as narrated by you that God Allah YHWH talked to Joseph Smith.

It might be your guess or his guess that God Allah YHWH talked to him. Is it specifically mentioned by him? I could not see it there in the text.

So; Joseph Smith is not appointed by God Allah YHWH as Messenger Prophet of Him.

One more little question; did Joseph Smith believe that Jesus was God?

Any Mormon or any other viewer could join in the discussion, please.

I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully and rationally described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

One could see the full comments made by markparker1 on my post here:

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/paul-and-joseph-smith-were-not-truthful-messengers-propohets-of-god-allah-yhwh-they-met-the-same-fate-god-so-arranged-that-they-were-killed/#comments

It is proved that Jesus was neither accursed, nor did he go to hell for three days, nor did he suffer death on Cross; so Jesus went to heaven in forty days, is proved to be wrong

June 5, 2009

Maaark says:

Thank you for the explanation of Ahmadi.

About mankind’s condition; I believe the Bible addresses three fundamental questions for mankind;
1-What is the nature and character of our Creator?
2- What is the nature of mankind and what is our problem?
3- Therefore what shall we do?

#2 the nature of man;

Do Muslims believe mankind (male and female) has a special relationship to God different from all other animals? Bible calls this made in the image of God. Evolutionists do not recognize this distinction.

What is sin? are all mankind prone to sin? Does sin separate people from God? Is there a special word or concept of sin in the Koran that is different from the Bible?

Does the Koran accept the Genesis account of Adam and Eve and their sin? (long question so sumerize)

Paarsurrey says:

I will give you a reply in brief:

1. Yes, Quran does specify a special relationship between God Allah YHWH and the human beings. The animals have been created for service and benefit of the human beings.

2. Yes, Quran does mention that the human beings could acquire in their limited beings, the attributes of God Allah YHWH; this is the same thing as saying in the image of God but never a god.

3. Quran mentions that human beings are apt to sin; to avoid from sins one needs constant help from God to uproot the sins before they grow up in our selves; and if we commit a sin then submissively ask forgiveness with a resolve not to commit the sin again. Adam did make a mistake but since he asked forgiveness, he was forgiven by God Allah YHWH. Sins are not transferable or are not herditary.

4. Quran does not mention that Adam or Eve were the first human beings born; Adam was the first human being honoured to have Converse of God Allah YHWH. Man evolved physically in billions of years till man reached a stange responsible to receive Converse with God.

The sins are actions done in rebellion of God Allah YHWH; when a human being does acts that are out of the image of God or the attributes of God; that could be described as a sin.

When off the image; man is obviously distanced from God; while his goal is to attain nearness of God; not physically, but attributively, one has to attain nearness of Him.

I think it will be appropriate here to quote from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah, and the Second Coming, to illustrate it further:

Apart from this, it was necessary that he should escape death on the cross, for it was stated in the Holy Book that whoever was hanged on the wood was accursed. It is a cruel and an unjust blasphemy to attribute a curse to an eminent person like Jesus, the Messiah, for, according to the agreed view of all who know the language, la’nat, or curse, has reference to the state of one’s heart.

A man would be said to be accursed when his heart, having been estranged from God, becomes really dark; when, deprived of divine mercy and of divine love, devoid absolutely of His Knowledge, blinded like the devil, he becomes filled with the poison of unbelief; when there remains not a ray of divine love and knowledge in him; when the bond of loyalty is broken, and between him and God there arises hatred and contempt and spite and hostility, so much so that God and he become mutual enemies; and when God becomes weary of him and he becomes weary of God; in short, when he becomes an heir to all the attributes of the Devil — and that is why the Devil himself is called accursed.3

It is clear that the significance of the word Mal’un, viz. accursed, is so foul that it can never apply to any righteous person who entertains love of God in his heart. Alas! Christians did not ponder over the significance of a curse when they invented this belief; else, it were impossible for them to have used such a bad word for a righteous man like Jesus. Can we say that Jesus’ heart was ever really estranged from God; that he had denied God, that he hated Him and had become His enemy?

Can we ever think that Jesus had ever felt in his heart that he was estranged from God, that he was an enemy of God, and that he was immersed in the darkness of unbelief and denial? If, then, Jesus had never been in such a state of mind, that his heart was always full of love and the light of Divine Knowledge, is it for you, wise people, to ponder whether we can ever say that, not one, but thousands of curses from God had descended upon the heart of Jesus with all their evil significance? Never. Then, how can we say that he was, God forbid, accursed?

It is a pity that once a man has given utterance to something, when he has taken his stand upon a particular belief, he is not inclined to give up that belief, however much the absurdity thereof be exposed. Desire to attain salvation, if grounded upon true foundations, is a praiseworthy thing, but where is the sense in having a desire for salvation which kills truth and which countenances, regarding a holy prophet arid a perfect man, the belief that he had as it were passed through a state in which he had been estranged from God, and in which, instead of unity of heart and unity of inclination, there had been produced a strangeness and aloofness, enmity and hatred; and, instead of light, darkness had surrounded his heart?

Let it also be noticed that this not only detracts from the prophethood and apostleship of Jesus (on whom be the peace of God) but it is also derogatory to his claim to spiritual eminence, holiness, love, and knowledge of God, to which he has repeatedly given expression in the gospels. Just look through the Bible; therein Jesus clearly claims that he is the Light of the world, that he is the Guide, and that he stands in a relation of great love towards God; that he has been honoured by a clean birth, and that he is the loved Son of God.

How then, in spite of these pure and holy relations, can a curse, with all its significance, be attributed to Jesus? No, never. Therefore, there is no doubt that Jesus was not crucified, i.e., he did not die on the Cross, for his personality did not deserve the underlying consequence of death on the Cross. Not having been crucified, he was spared the impure implications of a curse, and no doubt it also proves that he did not go to heaven, for going to heaven formed part of this whole scheme and was a consequence of the idea of his having been crucified. Therefore, when it is proved that he was neither accursed, nor did he go to hell for three days, nor did he suffer death the other part of the scheme, namely, that he went to heaven, is proved to be wrong.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html
Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus was only one of God’s created men and with a Message from God Allah YHWH; like was Noah or Jonah; Jesus never asked anyone to worship him or to pray from him

June 5, 2009

Yourbrotherinchrist says:

Thank you for inviting me to read today’s message and post a response. Please let me know if ever I can support you in prayer in any way. Though you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are still my family, and I love you. More importantly and wonderfully, Jesus loves you. He will be waiting for you with open arms should you ever decide to turn to Him.

Have a wonderful and blessed rest of the day.

Your brother in Christ,

Rev Jason Thurwanger

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend yourbrotherinchrist

You are always welcome to pray for me; best wishes of my friends make me happy.

While praying for me, please pray to the ONE to whom Jesus used to pray to; i.e God Allah YHWH. Jesus was only one of his created men and with a Message from God Allah YHWH; like were Noah or Jonah.

I seek love of God Allah YHWH; you can pray for me that He gets pleased with me and makes me near to Him.
I think that would do.

Nice responding me; may God Allah YHWH bless you!

I love Jesus and Mary as beautifully and truthfully described in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

One can view full comments/post of yourbrotherinchrist by accessing:

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/jesus-went-from-one-country-to-another-and-at-nightfall-wherever-he-was-he-used-to-eat-the-vegetation-of-the-jungle-and-to-drink-pure-water/#comments