Archive for the ‘Cross’ Category

Would you like a miniature replica of a mangled car your loved one died in?

April 15, 2013

Hank Kimball says:

(One may view his comments on my post https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/modern-christianity-is-founded-by-paul/#comment-2404 )

Jesus died on a torcher stake. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul tell the same story, from their angle. Plus, it only makes sense. Not a lot of wood in the Middle East countries, back then or now. It has been a dry arid environment as far back as our history shows. Why would the scribes, Pharisees or Romans, take more wood or WORK than necessary to KILL a person or persons(many were killed together with others, at one court time) that they deemed immoral, evil or deserving of death?. They wouldn’t. Nobody would. It doesn’t even make sense.

My theory is that of idolatry. The history of it proves it out. Simply, a cross makes a better looking item of worship than what can be confused as a stick. That’s another thing. Over and over again God condemns the worshiping, blessing and idolizing of graven imagines. I honestly think people don’t know what that means. And, would you like a miniature replica of a mangled car your loved one died in, on a chain to hang around your neck ? So you can remember their suffering. Jesus loves us. You know, Jesus didn’t HAVE TO die in a suffering way to complete the ransom sacrifice. Jesus just had to die without disobedience to God.

Theoretically Jesus could have died of old age. Then you’d be wearing a gold or silver miniature bed around your neck.! He died for us! He didn’t suffer for us. He suffered because of the cruel and horrible WAY he died, because of the customs and IGNORANCE of the people that killed him. He DID NOT CHOOSE to suffer. Jesus knew what was coming and it scared Him. Some people think that’s blasphemy. Jesus ask God to spare Him IF it would be God’s will. He didn’t ask because He suddenly had a change of heart. Jesus wasn’t beyond human emotion and feeling. Satan would have NEVER wasted his time in trying to tempt Jesus to sin if Jesus wasn’t human in every respect, save one, Jesus was a man without sin. That’s because Jesus was born of God’s active force, the Holy Spirit, not imperfect man.

If your religion isn’t actually using the bible as the basis of service, you might want to question why. That’s because the bible clearly says at John 17:3 ‘This means everlasting life,their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Christ Jesus.’

Paarsurrey says:

I agree with Hank Kimball that Jesus and cross should not be worshipped; it is simple idolatry, Moses and Jesus both condemn worshiping, blessing and idolizing of graven imagines.

Cross is a symbol of torture of Jesus instead of loving and wearing it; it should be disliked. Has ever a person loved the gun with which one’s dear one has been killed?

I think Christians should not use Cross as a symbol of Jesus’ religion and it should be removed from the rooftops of the Churches by lovers of Jesus themselves.

“Ending the pretense of faith”

March 20, 2010

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/paula_kirby/2010/03/ending_the_pretence.html

Hi friends

I quote from the article:

“These pastors, at least, have begun the important process of being honest with themselves”

I agree that these pastors have admitted an obvious fact; that what they preach is not based on truth. This open admission of the pastors if carried to its logical conclusions must entail the reform of the Christians faith in face of the Skepticism- taking place vacated by the Christian faith. And fortunately it is not difficult to do so. It should not be difficult to find out as to what Jesus and Mary believed in and what they never believed in but the Church ascribed it to them. What Jesus, Mary and the OTBible Prophets believed in was reasonable, rational and logical; with a little thought that could be ascertained and refreshed.

Jesus and Mary were devoted Jews; followers of Moses and OTBible or Torah and the Prophets. They could never deviate from their faith. So much so that Jesus was ready and in fact he was put on the Cross; but he did not waiver. He stood by the reasonable faith he had.

One has just to see as to what was Jesus’ and Mary’s belief in terms of the OTBible. The extra teachings later added or invented are just to be expunged being worthless additions and untrue witnessing.

The reformation is ready and it will be fine. Christians already believe in the OTBible; so the reformation would be within their belief system and not outside of it.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus and Mary being Jews never celebrated Easter

March 18, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/jesus-was-not-dead-on-the-cross-in-the-first-place/#comment-952

hvtbintl69 Says:

I agree we have common points yet it is my desire as a Christian that you understand the differences because Eternity is a long time. The reason why Christians celebrate Easter is because Jesus bought eternity for us – he was the perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus died on the cross – it was not someone that “seemed” like him, it was him and he rose.
Thanks.

paarsurrey Says:

Hi friend “hvtbintl69”

I don’t agree here:

1. I don’t think Jesus, who was a Jesus and his mother Mary also; they ever celebrated Easter- of the Catholics Protestants.

2. Jesus never bought any eternity for anybody; he himself died a natural and peaceful death in India.

3. Jesus never sacrificed himself for anybody’s sins.

4. Jesus never died on the Cross; he was alive when delivered from the Cross but in a near-dead position; that is why his friends took him hurriedly to a spacious tomb for treatment; so that he does not get suffocated.

5. Jesus never died on the Cross; so there is no question for his beings risen from the dead.
I think you understand.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

“JESUS DID NOT DIE WHILST ON THE CROSS”

February 12, 2010

Courtesy: richarddawkins discussion forum; I give hereunder a good post on the above topic.

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=109343

Postby oombuddah » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:26 pm
Christians:

It makes sense because Jesus was only put on for a few hours! Even Josephus’ best mate survived the cross after days and days.

To worry your position even more, there is a scholarly work which shows that people would die between 3-7 days on hanging on the cross.

There is an evolution of the descriptions of torture, it looks like the latests gospels try to intensify the others.
Jesus was fed antiseptic.

Jesus was annointed with healing herbs.
No one knows the cause of his death – not even the doctors, but it is obvious that there is no cause of his death because if you look at it from a scientific viewpoint, it is in fact very unlikely that he did die in the first place.

Sure, they all agree he died but on what basis? They are looking at the evangelized accounts of his “scourging”.
Jesus was put into a roomy tomb where he can breathe.
Gosp. of John SPEAR THRUST – Raymond Brown said it was an insertion to prove docetists wrong. Biblical scholars agree that this spear thrust is extremely unlikely and UNHISTORICAL.
Jesus cried to be saved from death. God heard him.

They were professional executioners, but they aren’t always right – they are not scientists like today, try going to the point of drowning, you are unconscious for so long – it’s quite a similar phenomenon in a few ways. You are assumed dead.

Remember what happened to Paul? So many people thought he was dead, not just 2 or 3. But he got up and walked away.
It is so clear that if you analyse the science, Jesus did not die on the cross.

Pliny the Elder even had a big ass moan in his works saying that it is hard to determine when someone is actually dead or not!
Doctors who have said that Jesus died on the cross had took every single account in Mark, Matthew, Luke and John literally – Just remember that.

You would be assuming that Jesus had died on the cross. Its nothing more than an assumption. Christians know that.
They base their salvation on something which is assumed to be a miracle. They are doing half the miracle by assuming it’s a miracle.
We all know, there’s no point of me even reiterating this but hey, antiseptics have such an effect, that it can cause one to swoon.

As for guards at the tomb:

how do we know they were there? No one was there to witness the guards at the tomb – Dr. William Lane Craig and other top Christian scholars agree that the guards at the tomb are “Probably Not Historical” and could have come about from shouting matches in the form of oral traditions (to try and disprove the idea that Jesus got up and walked away with his normal body) which were then put in the gospels.

Raymond Brown, one of the top Christian scholar of our present time believes that Jesus appeared once to the disciples in which he said NOTHING. Then vanished.

There’s two ways of approaching this issue naturalistically:

1. Jesus appeared to the disciples in his human form, he disguised himself so he doesn’t get caught by the Jews, the disciples doubted it was Jesus whom they saw – the gospels attest to this idea (to back my point up).

2. Visions of Jesus – either naturalistic visions or visions granted by God – which is supported in Islamic tradition.

The thing about visionary appearances is that visions can be seen, felt and spoken too, even hugged. They can be viewed by masses of people. For example, Virgin Mary. Dr. Bart Ehrman argues in a recent debate that the resurrection appearances are visions.

Type this in on Youtube:

Virgin Mary appears to +500,000 people in Egypt!!

So appearances to the 11 really doesn’t mean anything much when Mary appears to 000’s
Did she really appear? I don’t think so, but they are adamant that she did.

Doesn’t the visionary body seem exactly the same as a resurrected body to you? I should think so.

I would also like to ask you, don’t you think Pilate would want to spare Jesus? Don’t you think the Roman centurions would seriously want to spare Jesus?

So here you are, the resurrection is disputed and surprisingly can be explained away very credibly, naturalistically.

You would need to prove that he died in the first place which is a total assumption.

How can the disciples tell a resurrected body and a visionary body which can be seen, touched, spoken to and hugged? They haven’t seen anything of a ‘resurrected nature’ before, so even if they did give firm testimony of the type of resurrection that some Christians try to prove (bodily), is this firm testimony really accurate? Of course not , only by assumption is it accurate. To assume a miracle is to assume salvation.

Look at the description of Jesus’ beating, and compare that to the other gospels (by the way, top christian and non christian scholars agree that Mark is a source of Matthew and Luke, and that Matthew and Luke evangelize and also just add extra info on Mark). The description of the beatings in Luke and Matthew are far greater than the descriptions of the beatings in Mark.
Jesus’ legs were not broken – a method done to ensure a quick death AND to ensure that if people are put into a tomb, they don’t ESCAPE!

Pilate was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED and DOUBTED when he heard Jesus had died SO EARLY. The centurion went to check and looked at him – he didn’t know for sure obviously, but he said that he died.

(I am an Ex-Christian Convert to Islam, I have tried my best to minimize bias towards my particular belief – Jesus swooned). But it makes sense naturalistically right?

Dr. Richard Carrier believes that the resurrection appearances was based on an assumption from looking at Isaiah 53.
Even if Jesus was to remain alive, because they saw him, they would assume he resurrected from the dead anyway lol

Isaiah 53 Suffering servant = ISRAEL! NOT JESUS!

“How old was Jesus Christ when he died?”

February 11, 2010

Paarsurrey edits/revises the answer.
Courtesy: wiki.answers.com

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_old_was_Jesus_Christ_when_he_died&action=edit

We do not know for sure the exact age of Jesus when He was crucified, but He was probably 33 years old.

Here is the argument. Jesus was baptized which means he was not a “Christian”. But the reason He was baptized was to “fulfill all righteousness,” (Matt. 3:15); Jesus never mentioned that reason, Matthew was not innocent, so could be wrong.

He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20); that would have made Jesus a Jew; not a “Christian god”.

Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21); if we would have sinned ; what our sins had to do with Jesus’ sacrifice or to any priest.

To be consecrated as a priest, Jesus had to be: 1) washed with water – baptism – (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16). 2) Anointed with oil – the Holy Spirit – (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16).

Jesus was a Christian god; if he was innocent he need do any such thing. Additionally, He may have needed to be 30 years old, Num. 4:3, “from thirty years and upward, even to fifty years old, all who enter the service to do the work in the tent of meeting.” Therefore we can conclude that Jesus began His earthly ministry at the age of 30. Since it went on for 3 1/2 years before Jesus was crucified, it is safe to say that He was 33 at the time of His death Jesus (the man) was crucified at the age of 33.

Jesus was though put on Cross, yet he was delivered in near-dead position.

• I’d say he was 24 at best.

• There are some Muslim traditions which say Jesus died a natural and peaceful death in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India, at the age of 120/125 years.

• Scholars estimate he was born 2-7 BCE and died 26-36 BCE. The Scholar are human beings; they should revise their estimates.
• Keep in mind, 2,000 years ago the average life-expectancy was less than 20; even then people could live well beyond an old age.

he was not 33 years old they don’t know exactly what was the age and it don’t say that in the bible

Since the Bible is specific about time, Christ would have been 33 1/2 years old when He was crucified, or 33 yrs., 6 mos.

Bible is not a sound source of history. The scriptures tell us that He died on Passover, so by using simple math, we can count BACKWARDS 6 mos. from Passover (roughly the middle of March) and determine His date of birth also, roughly the middle of September…Well, the scriptures could be wrong, the are supposed to be written by faulty human beings.

This last entry is pretty accurate; but remember: he also had an earthly existence for some 33 & a half years and also a heavenly preexistence before he came to live as a man on earth, and starting out life as a human baby. He is referred to in the Holy Scriptures as: “the first born of creation, and the son of God.”It is wrong to say Jesus was first born; physically. All things were created through him after he came to be. “I came to be a master worker along side my Father…..” Given that understanding, Jesus would have to be many millions of years, and probably billions of years old. No wonder he was so wise!

Meditating on these facts as we know them from the bible will help us understand the meaning of him being a mighty god, but not almighty God; god Jesus never was and he never claimed to be as such literally.

He is the son of God, an actual direct creation of God; Jesus was not a son of God; also, this is only possible if Mary was a wife of God; since that was not the case; Jesus could not be son of God literally. Therefore he is not God. He is the image of God, figuratively yes, as we would say a son is the image of his father. Yet a son is not in reality the father. Therefore the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit are one in purpose, but not three parts of one entity.

We don’t have to use this terminology cooked by Paul; it is a faulty terminology The Father, or God, the Creator, was most commonly known by the name of Jehovah. Some refer to him from the Hebrew as YHWH, and think it is wrong to utter God’s name aloud. What is wrong is ‘to utter God’s name in vain.’ We are to say His name with reverence and deep respect. Jesus model prayer referred to or known as ‘the Lord’s prayer’ says: “Let your name be sanctified,” or “Hallowed be thy name.”

I have made some changes; for more accuracy the editors should read the book “Jesus in India” by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_old_was_Jesus_Christ_when_he_died&action=edit

I thank wiki.answers, for giving an opportunity to me to revise the article.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Jesus was not dead on the Cross, in the first place

February 7, 2010

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=108733&start=10

TEP wrote:

In order to be resurrected, surely you have to have been alive and died first. So, unless you can show that this snowman was walking around before he disappeared, then what you have proven is not a resurrection, but the existence of golems.

Paarsurrey wrote:

Hi friend TEP

There you are absolutely right.

Looking into the Bible intently it seems that at the end of the event of Crucifixion, there was some sort of underhand dealing between Pilate- Paarsurreythe Roman Official, and the friends of Jesus. Jesus’ legs were not broken as was customary; while legs of the thieves crucified with Jesus were broken. Jesus’ legs were spared; what difference would it have made if his legs were also broken? If Jesus was a god, as Catholics Protestants believe, and he was to get resurrected from the dead; he would have resurrected even if Jesus was minced to pieces. But Jesus was only a human being, so with the collaboration of friends of Jesus and Pilate his legs were not broken; in stead, Jesus was taken hurriedly to a tomb spacious enough to have a big hole which could be termed as door, and another hole which could be termed as a ventilator; lest Jesus who was near-dead but alive, does not get suffocated and becomes really dead. The tomb in which Jesus was laid could accommodate 3/4 persons i.e., physicians and/or attendants, for treatment of the wounds Jesus got inflicted upon the Cross.

So, Jesus was not dead in the first place as we have seen above from the Bible, if studied deeply; there is no question of Jesus’ resurrection, not in the least.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Faith, religion, alive, died first, resurrection, Bible, Crucifixion, Pilate, underhand deal, Roman Officials, friends of Jesus, Jesus’ legs were not broken, If Jesus was a god, Catholics, Protestants, tomb, suffocation, physicians, attendants, treatment, wounds, Cross,

Jesus never died a cursed death on Cross; he survived

January 30, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4701&p=93256#p93256

Brendalee wrote:

Please point me to the contemporary documents from Jesus’ time, that tell the story of Jesus going off to India so I may read it for myself

I love Isa and Miriam as mentioned in Bible

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend Brendalee

Please read the book “Jesus in India” written by the Second Coming, the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 by accessing Ahmadiyya Official Website> library> books> Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. It is available online; please google for it.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

The Cross of the imagination of Paul stands broken

January 25, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5516&start=100

HollowScar wrote:

Also, Islam is the fastest growing, but look at the population of Muslims in some countries which are overpopulated. Look at the fact that, leaving means death. Look at the fact that there are many Muslims who aren’t true to themselves, and may not even be considered a Muslim by Allah. Look at the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the world.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend HollowScar

I just want to correct you on one thing; “Christianity” is a misnomer started by Paul and the Church, it has nothing to do with Jesus or Mary or their beliefs and teachings. It is conglomerate of many denominations/faiths/religions 32000+ of them clubbed together with hardly anything in common. Each one of them considers themselves as the only true Christians and the others as heretics. So the population they quote is to be divided by at least 32000 and the quotient should be compared to the Muslims. The Catholics don’t consider Protestants as Christians and the vice versa. If you need I can provide you the references or just visit Catholics forums and see what they believe about Protestants; you may also visit the Protestant forums and see for yourself what they think about the Catholics.

A majority of the Catholics and Protestants have become Atheists Agnostics; as they don’t believe that Jesus was a God; human conscience rejects divinity of Jesus. If you count the Church going Christians; you will find still much less active members of these religions.

The Catholics Protestants, if they sincerely believe in Jesus; they should reform and reject all worthless concepts of Paul, clever working of his cunning brain, carved out of thin air or the same are like a spider’s web; only then the Catholics Protestants can bring back or salvage their members who have silently got converted to Atheism Agnosticism.

As it is not secret; the Atheists Agnostics though they should have been a reasonable people; yet being un-natural concepts they are nothing more than a meme; their permanent abode is in doubt and they have no recourse except in derision and ridiculing others. I still hope they may reform, if they start respecting other human beings. I respect their faith or un-faith.

The Catholics Protestants should find the true teachings of Jesus, Moses and other Messengers Prophets of the Creator – God Allah YHWH and also righteous women like Mary and Moses’ mother and should follow their beliefs and their acts and deeds. Therein lies their salvation; not in the obsolete concept of Jesus dieing on the Cross; as Jesus did not die on the Cross, so the Cross of the imagination of Paul stands broken and is futile as per his own words. Jesus made good his escape to India and died there peacefully and naturally at the age of about 120 years.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Jesus never in fact claimed any deity in literal terms

January 24, 2010

https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/punishment-for-claimants-of-divinity-in-jews-from-moses/#comment-891

Hi friend sch

I thank you for sending me an ocean of words , not on the topic , yet not quoting in your reply as I have asked you any verses from the OTBible or Torah where punishment for the claimant of divinity has been mentioned for Jews by Moses.

You may quote it now, if you like; there is however no compulsion.
So Jesus was a claimant of the office of a Prophet Messenger of the Creator -God Allah YHWH; and Jews tried to punish him as a false Prophet Messenger as mentioned in Deuteronomy 13 and Leviticus 24.
There is no punishment in Torah for a claimant of Divinity; so this was not a charge against Jesus by the Jews; Jesus never in fact claimed any deity in literal terms.

Jesus survived death on the Cross and later he migrated to India; and thus Jews failed in their designs and Jesus was proved a truthful Prophet of the Creator- God Allah YHWH.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

No infallible historicity of the Catholic Protestant Scriptures

January 24, 2010

Aaron wrote:

I invite you to love the Jesus of history, the true Promised Messiah, as recorded in Scripture.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend Aaron

There is no infallible historicity of the Catholic Protestant Scriptures. Jesus lived up to the age of 120 years. The Catholic Protestant Scriptures give only 3 years of Jesus life in Judea and that only for a specific purpose which makes it a biased resource; one could simply judge the historicity of the scripture from it.

There is hardly any account of Jesus life before three years of his childhood and what he did before the age of 27 years in Egypt or elsewhere in the Catholic Protestant Scriptures.

When Jesus made good his escape to India from a cursed death in consequence of Jews putting him on the Cross; the Catholic Protestant Scriptures fail to record accounts of Jesus’ life in India and the neighboring countries.

Even these three years accounts of Jesus life in Judea have contradicting reports of the events.

For instance I just take one:

Matthew records that all the disciple of Jesus had fled away from the scene of the Cross and they deserted Jesus.

John says that a beloved disciple of Jesus was there and Jesus asked him to take care of his mother deserted Jesus Mary; the other Gospels don’t record it. Even John mentions it in third person; why should he be ashamed of mentioning his name in the first person if he was there; he was simply not there.

It is only a wishful thinking of the Catholic Protestant that their scriptures have any infallible historicity. No; that is not true.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks and regards