Archive for the ‘atonement’ Category

Jesus dying as substitution of others’ sins is just mythical and superfluous

May 3, 2013

Hank Kimball says:

(In reply to my post:”Did Jesus himself claim that he was sent for the atonement of sins of others?”)

There is NO sin that cannot be forgiven. I did not know that at one time, but I believe the bible is the word of God. Isaiah 1;18:”Come, now, ​YOU​ people, and let us set matters straight between us,” says Jehovah. “Though the sins of ​YOU​ people should prove to be as scarlet, they will be made white just like snow; though they should be red like crimson cloth, they will become even like wool”.

Paarsurrey says:

I think Jesus words should be understood in the light of the Isaiah 1; 18:

Jesus words narrated in NT seem to be doctored by Paul and or the Church.

If sins can be washed off with repentance, asking forgiveness from one true God and resolve not to commit the sin anymore in the time of Isaiah and before him and after him to Jesus’ time; and that is a very reasonable and natural approach; there is no need of any human ransom.

Jesus did not die on the Cross in the first place; so the theory of Jesus dying for the sins of others or anybody else as substitution is just mythical and superfluous.

You may like to read answer to Question-1 from the following book by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah:

http://www.alislam.org/library/browse/volume/Ruhani_Khazain/book/Sirajuddin_Esai_ke_Char_Sawalon_ka_Jawab/?l=English#page/-9/mode/1up

I give a facsimile of the page-one from the same; please view it at the end of the post.

One may read the whole answer to the question.

Of course you may have your own opinion.

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The Cross of the imagination of Paul stands broken

January 25, 2010

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5516&start=100

HollowScar wrote:

Also, Islam is the fastest growing, but look at the population of Muslims in some countries which are overpopulated. Look at the fact that, leaving means death. Look at the fact that there are many Muslims who aren’t true to themselves, and may not even be considered a Muslim by Allah. Look at the fact that Christianity is the largest religion in the world.

Paarsurrey says:

Hi friend HollowScar

I just want to correct you on one thing; “Christianity” is a misnomer started by Paul and the Church, it has nothing to do with Jesus or Mary or their beliefs and teachings. It is conglomerate of many denominations/faiths/religions 32000+ of them clubbed together with hardly anything in common. Each one of them considers themselves as the only true Christians and the others as heretics. So the population they quote is to be divided by at least 32000 and the quotient should be compared to the Muslims. The Catholics don’t consider Protestants as Christians and the vice versa. If you need I can provide you the references or just visit Catholics forums and see what they believe about Protestants; you may also visit the Protestant forums and see for yourself what they think about the Catholics.

A majority of the Catholics and Protestants have become Atheists Agnostics; as they don’t believe that Jesus was a God; human conscience rejects divinity of Jesus. If you count the Church going Christians; you will find still much less active members of these religions.

The Catholics Protestants, if they sincerely believe in Jesus; they should reform and reject all worthless concepts of Paul, clever working of his cunning brain, carved out of thin air or the same are like a spider’s web; only then the Catholics Protestants can bring back or salvage their members who have silently got converted to Atheism Agnosticism.

As it is not secret; the Atheists Agnostics though they should have been a reasonable people; yet being un-natural concepts they are nothing more than a meme; their permanent abode is in doubt and they have no recourse except in derision and ridiculing others. I still hope they may reform, if they start respecting other human beings. I respect their faith or un-faith.

The Catholics Protestants should find the true teachings of Jesus, Moses and other Messengers Prophets of the Creator – God Allah YHWH and also righteous women like Mary and Moses’ mother and should follow their beliefs and their acts and deeds. Therein lies their salvation; not in the obsolete concept of Jesus dieing on the Cross; as Jesus did not die on the Cross, so the Cross of the imagination of Paul stands broken and is futile as per his own words. Jesus made good his escape to India and died there peacefully and naturally at the age of about 120 years.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

“Original Sin”: not an OTBiblical term believed by Jesus or Mary

December 19, 2008

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=4564288&postcount=3
original sin

Originally Posted by severntofall:
What’s the whole deal with Adam and Eve? Why did their eating fruit from the tree of life anger God so greatly? How did this sin impact humanity? What would earth be like now if they hadn’t of committed this sin?

Paarsurrey says:

Hi

All sins are sins; there is no original sin. Every sin can be forgiven by God Allah; only the sinner has to sincerely repent of his sin and resolve not to do it again and ask forgiveness from God Allah in total humility. This term “original sin” is not used in OTBible. Jesus and Mary were Jews, they never used this term from their mouth.

Only Paul invented this term to base his theological philosophy to confuse the Catholics in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

severntofall says:

Very true; it was actually centuries after Jesus’ death before this concept was ever discussed.

Religions are supposed to do what their God tells them to do no matter how harsh it may seem

December 12, 2008

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost….0&postcount=13Flogging adulterers and adulteresses one hundred times

eldestofvic says:

Originally Posted by ralphinal:

Very relevant. Being in delicto flagrante when caught is totally different. In the most places today that do not allow ANY punishment for Adultry, catching your wife in bed with another man can be grounds for all kinds of actions

eldestofvic says:

What kind of legal actions would you be refering to? What I was drawing attention to was not the definiton of how a sin was deemed to have taken place but only the response to that sin once determined

Originally Posted by ralphinal
Then what?

eldestofvic says:

Then what, what? All I did was point out that you had overlooked that the remedy is the same for the woman as the man.

Originally Posted by ralphinal
Shouldn’t religion try to ease the harshness? Or should it contribute?

eldestofvic says:

No that’s more the job of hospitals and mattress makers. Religions are suppose to do what their Gd tells them to do no matter how harsh it may seem.

Originally Posted by ralphinal
Jesus said to forgive those who wrong you. Having the ever-loving stuff beaten out of someone IS NOT FORGIVENESS.

eldestofvic says:

And when your religion does not recognize that Jesus has the authority to say this, he is only one man talking, and a blasphemer. If Gd has told you to “beat the ever-loving stuff” out of sinners, you do so, because Gd is Gd and His ways are not your ways.

Originally Posted by ralphinal
Islam has been around for 1500 years. Are they any closer to being more kind?

eldestofvic says:

And after 1000 years did Christians display any level more of kindness from Jerusulam to Srebinica?
Islam has its more liberal elements and more fundamental regimes just like every other religion. And again, when did “kind” become a benchmark for obedience?

Originally Posted by ralphinal
Really? The fact that they call Paul a lier, Jesus a lier, Mary a lier, all the Apostles liers, then claim to love them (except Paul), then tell us that we should be Muslim like Jesus really bugs me.

Perhaps I am too close to the situation. I see calling Jesus and those closest to him a lying peice of trash to be insulting to me and to them.

eldestofvic says:

Listen, I’m not saying that Islam is right. If I felt that way then obviously I should become a Muslim. I think what I’m responding to mostly in these threads is the level of rhetoric that seems more in keeping with the kind of stuff/attitudes etc. that I’ve had to face defending Catholic teachings to Protestants.

Paarsurrey says:

I agree with eldestofvic that Religions are supposed to do what their God tells them to do no matter how harsh it may seem.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

When to forgive and when not to forgive?

December 11, 2008

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=4529026#post4529026

When to forgive and when not to forgive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w_stewart
Islam does not allow a sinner to repent. Once a man sins, he is to be punished cruelly even to the point of his death. The concept of forgiveness is germane to their religious tradition.

Hi

I think you have not studied Quran in the least. Never mind you may start it now.

[42:35] Or He can destroy those who are in them because of that which they have earned – but He forgives many of their sins –
[42:36] And He destroys them so that those who dispute concerning Our Signs may know that they have no refuge.
[42:37] And whatever you have been given is only a temporary provision of this life, but that which is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord,
[42:38] And those who eschew the more grievous sins and indecencies, and, when they are wroth, they forgive,
[42:39] And those, who hearken to their Lord, and observe Prayer, and whose affairs are decided by mutual consultation, and who spend out of what We have provided for them,
[42:40] And those who, when a wrong is done to them, defend themselves.

[42:41] Remember that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers.

[42:42] There is no blame on those who defend themselves after they have been wronged.
[42:43] The blame is only on those who wrong men and transgress in the earth without justification. Such will have a grievous punishment.
[42:44] And he who is patient and forgives – that, surely, is a matter of high resolve.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2…=42& verse=34

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Islam does not make one a coward; but wants that one should be graceful.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

paarsurrey › Edit — WordPress

October 31, 2008

via paarsurrey › Edit — WordPress

Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross

July 4, 2008

Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross
And hence, therefore, there is no Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. The entire Christian myth is based on this belief. Our CatholicProtestant friends have rightly acknowledged the logic behind this in words of no less a person than Paul who happened to invent this theological philosophy at Rome when Jesus was alive but on his way to India; Jesus was in exile.

This point, that if there is no Jesus’ death on cross, there is no resurrection from the dead and divinity of Jesus gets falsifiedis well established by the following website:
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/resurrection-of-christ.htm

And we quote:

“Resurrection of Christ – Establishing the Importance
The resurrection of Christ is the linchpin of the Christian faith — the historical event upon which Christian doctrine stands or falls. The apostle Paul makes this clear in his first letter to the Corinthians: But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is futile and your faith is empty. … For if only in this life we have hope in Christ, we should be pitied more than anyone (1 Cor. 15:13-14, 19).”

The things were like this till GodAllahYHWH revealed the truth on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani 1835-1908 that Jesus son of Mary had died and that he was the PromisedMessiah. The Second Coming of Jesus has taken place in his person metaphorically, and no one else would be coming literally and physically.

With this he was informed of the arguments of Jesus not dieing on Cross; from Quran, NTBible, History, and Medical etc. The evidences already existed in these scriptures only these were hidden from the eyes. The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 brought them into the light and now everyone could see them. In fact this is the doctrine on which rests the peace of the world. Jews, Christians and Muslim have stakes in it.

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has explained himself the importance of Jesus not dieing on Cross in his book “Jesus in India”:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

I have written this book, so that, by adducing proofs from established facts, from conclusive historical evidence of proved value and from ancient documents of non-Muslims, I might remove the serious misconceptions which are current among Muslims and among most Christian sects regarding the earlier and the later life of Jesus (on whom be peace) – misconceptions, the dangerous implications of which have not only injured and destroyed the conception of Divine Unity, but the unwholesome and poisonous influence of which has for long been noticed in the morals of the Muslims of this country. Spiritual maladies, i.e., want of good morals, evil thoughts, callousness, want of sympathy, are spreading among most Islamic sects, being the result of beliefs in unfounded stories and anecdotes of this kind. Human sympathy, pity and love of justice, humility and humble-mindedness – all good qualities – are disappearing day by day, as if they will soon bid a last farewell to this community.

This callousness and this immorality make many a Muslim appear no better than the beasts of the jungle. A Jain or a Buddhist is afraid of and avoids killing even a mosquito or a flea, but, alas! there are many among us Muslims who, while they kill an innocent man or commit wanton murder, are not afraid of the powerful God, who rates human life higher than that of all the animals.

What is this callousness and cruelty and want of sympathy due to? It is due to this – that from their very childhood, stories and anecdotes and wrong views of the doctrine of Jihad are dinned into their ears and inculcated into their hearts, the result being that gradually they become morally dead and cease to feel the heinousness of their hateful actions; nay, rather, the man who murders another man unawares and thus brings ruin to the murdered man’s family thinks that he has done a meritorious deed; or rather, that he has made the most of an opportunity to win favour with his community.

As no lectures or sermons are delivered in our country to stop such evils – and if there are any such lectures they have an element of hypocrisy in them – the common people think approvingly of such misdeeds. Accordingly, taking pity upon my own people, I have compiled several books in Urdu, Persian and Arabic, in which I have stated that the popular view of Jihad prevalent among Muslims, that is, the expectation of a bloody Imam, full of spite and hostility for other people, is a texture of false beliefs inculcated by shortsighted Ulema; otherwise, Islam does not allow the use of the sword for the Faith; except in the case of defensive wars, or in the case of wars waged to punish a tyrant or to uphold freedom.

The need of a defensive war arises when the aggression of an adversary threatens one’s own life. These are the three kinds of Jihad permitted by the Shariat, and, apart from these three kinds, there is no other kind of war which is permitted by Islam for the propagation of the Faith.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/intro.html

All sins are forgivable – Established by Moses, Jesus and Muhammad

June 17, 2008

 

Victor
June 17, 2008 at 8:26 am

Ahmadi, thanks for your comments again. Could you look back over my post and answer the questions that I posed you?
Thanks!

paarsurrey
June 17, 2008 at 9:56 am

Quote from your Post:
One initial question for you though – you used the phrase “imaginary sins” in your post – do you propose that there is no such thing as sin?
__________________________

Hi Victor, my friend!

 

I don’t mean that there are/were no sins.

 

In my opinion the sins are forgiven by GodAllahYHWH when a sinner repents over his mistakes, asks forgiveness from GodAllahYHWH and resolves not to do it again. If God forgives the sins then it is as if no sins were committed altogether.

This is established from OTBible, Moses and Jesus. Quran also spports it and confirms it:

 

[39:54] Say, ‘O My servants who have sinned against their souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely, Allah forgives all sins. Verily, He is Most forgiving, Ever Merciful;
[39:55] ‘And turn to your Lord, and submit yourselves to Him, before there comes unto you the punishment; for then you shall not be helped;
[39:56] And follow the best Teaching that has been revealed to you from your Lord, before the punishment comes upon you suddenly, while you perceive not.’
[39:57] Lest a soul should say, ‘O woe is me in that I neglected my duty in respect of Allah! Surely, I was among the scoffers.’
http://www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=39&verse=49

 

It was Paul who invented his theological philosophy on imaginary sins; which has nothing to do with OTBible or Moses, Jesus ,Quran and Muhammad.

 

I love Jesus, Mary and Muhammad.

 

Thanks

 

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Jesus never died on Cross- no question of resurection

June 7, 2008

fridaynightsinferndale says in his post titled “resurrection – god saves”:

“Apart from the resurrection of Jesus Christ there is no savior, no salvation, no forgiveness of sin, no hope of resurrected eternal life, and Jesus is reduced to yet another good but dead man and therefore of no considerable help to us in this life or at its end. Plainly stated, without the resurrection of Jesus the few billion people who worship Jesus today as God are fools and their hope for a resurrection life after this life ends is the hope of silly fools. Thankfully, there is good warrant to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from death.”

 

 

Paarsurrey comments:

 

Hi

 

I respect your faith.

 

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has convinced me otherwise with his rational and reasonable arguments from Quran and Bible that Jesus never died on Cross and hence there is no question of being resurrected from the dead for atonement of the sins of CatholicsProtestants.

 

In my opinion this was inventented by Paul to promote his own theological philosophy at Rome while Jesus was still alive and went to Eastern side to India. There were no two Jesuses.

 

I think the CatholicsProtestants should revise their incorrect concepts.

 

I love Jesus , Mary and Muhammad.

 

Kindly visit my blogsite for any peaceful comments and or peaceful discussion on interesting posts/pages there. You are welcome for your differing opinion/thoughts if you so like.

 

Thanks