Archive for September 14th, 2017

“Did Jesus proclaim that he was raised from the dead?”

September 14, 2017

I started the above topic/thread for discussion on one of my favourite discussion forum:

Debating Christianity and Religion Forum Index -> Christianity and Apologetics

I think that the following was the best post in the topic. One may like to join the forum for more discussion, please.

Thanks to the forum and Mr.JerryMyers , please.

Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 56: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:22 am
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Like this post (1): paarsurrey1


tam wrote:
And my point was that these ones were also put to death, as Christ was also put to death. Even in the parable of the wicked tenants foretells that the “tenants’ wanted to and would kill Him:


JerryMyers Offline


Yes, there are prophets who were put to death BUT that does not mean Jesus too must be put to death. Just as there are many soldiers who had died fighting for their country BUT that does not mean ALL soldiers must die for their country. The soldiers are fully aware of the risks and consequences of being a soldier just as Jesus was fully aware of the sufferings he will have to endure of being a prophet of God.

As for the parable of the wicked tenants, well, it’s just one of the many parables told, meant to be taken as a lesson and NOT to be taken literally or as a prophecy.

tam wrote:
I am not a ‘unitarian’ Christian. I am a Christian. I belong to Christ. I do not belong to anyone or anything other than Christ; I do not follow anyone or anything other than Christ. So I do not take any other name, such as “unitarian, roman catholic, mormon, jehovahs witness, baptist, anglican, adventist, pentecostal, etc, etc.”

JerryMyers Offline

OK, I can respect that.

tam wrote:
No. Because no one who accepts Christ having been crucified and raised from the dead has to try and explain away His words. No one has to try and say that Christ did not mean what He said. No one has to try and suggest that He did not know what was going to happen to Him. The entire NT testifies to His death (on the cross), His having died (on the cross) and then Him being raised from the dead. He states clearly that He will be killed and raised from the dead.

JerryMyers Offline

The entire NT are narrations of events, what Jesus said and what other people said. I just chose to give priority to what Jesus said over what others said.

tam wrote:
The only people who have to explain His words away are those who believe a doctrine that contradicts what Christ said and did.

JerryMyers Offline

Well, I did explain Jesus’ words but it’s not what you want to hear so, you dismissed them. That’s OK.

tam wrote:
The point, Jerry, is that Christ used the term “the LAST day” to describe that day. He did not use the term “the third day” to describe that day.

JerryMyers Offline

Well, to your point – Jesus NEVER use the term ‘Christian’ to describe his followers and yet today, Christians say they are called ‘Christians’ because they follow Jesus !

tam wrote:
First… you said that there was no verse in the Bible that states unequivocally that Christ was raised from the dead. This verse was given in response to your claim.

JerryMyers Offline

…And I will say it again – there’s not a single verse in the Bible that states unequivocally that Jesus was raised from the dead… and you claimed these verses John 2:20-22 state otherwise ?? Really ??

Well, lets see what transpired for Jesus to say what he said :

As Jesus entered the temple courts, he became angry when he saw people exchanging money, selling cattle, sheep and doves in the temple courts. He then made a whip and cleared the temple courts, shouting “Stop making my Father’s House into a market place!”.. The people are, understandably, annoyed by his actions, so they asked him “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?” It was only then that Jesus said “Destroy the temple and I will raise it up in 3 days”. Now, lets ask ourselves honestly – does that sounds like Jesus was talking about his body ? No, what Jesus just said is an example of a hyperbole statement – an intentional exaggerated statement to emphasize a point – in response to the people who had just questioned him on whose authority gave him the rights to clear the temple courts. By saying ‘Destroy the temple and I will raise it up in 3 days’ Jesus was emphasizing that his authority came from God whose authority is so great that even if they destroy the temple, he can raise it up again in 3 days. Jesus, of course, was making a hyperbole statement to emphasize his authority. The people, of course, did not understand this and took it literally.

tam wrote:
Second… the false witnesses from Mark and Matthew testified falsely that Christ said HE would destroy the (physical) temple. But He never made that threat or spoke those words, as we can see from His words recorded in the book of John. He said to THEM (the pharisees and chief priests),

“Destroy this temple, and I will raise it up in three days.”

He never threatened to destroy their temple. He said what He would do (raise the temple up in 3 days) if they destroyed ‘this temple’.

JerryMyers Offline

Yes, but as I just explained above, that statement is a hyperbole statement. You need to understand the environment and the situation Jesus was in for him to say what he said and that was NOT the only time Jesus used hyperbole statements. Just to quote a couple of them :

– “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” – Mark 10:25 – a hyperbole statement to emphasize that it’s not easy and not every one can enter the kingdom of God and NOT as if a camel can go thru the eye of a needle.

– “But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing” – Matthew 6:3 – a hyperbole statement to emphasize that when you give alms or charities, do it secretively and not as a show-off and NOT as if the left hand and the right hand have brains of their own to know what each other do.

tam wrote:
And no, the verse does not contradict itself. You are confusing the ‘agony of death’ with ‘agony of DYING’.

Christ still died, but death could not hold (keep) Him.

You can see from the verse that Peter believed and stated that Christ had been put to death on the cross, that God raised Him from the dead. This came AFTER Christ had appeared to His disciples. So even after that time, His apostles understood that He had been crucified and raised from the dead.

JerryMyers Offline

The point is – IF Jesus died, then, he would have gone thru the full agony of, as you said, dying before meeting his death. When he ‘died’, then there’s no more agony, no more sufferings for him, at least, not on this earth. The next stage of your life after-death would be the Day of Resurrection/Last Day where all the dead will be resurrected for Judgment Day.

So, what is the difference between ‘agony of death’ and the ‘agony of dying’?? If you have experience in giving birth, is there a difference between ‘agony of labour’ and ‘agony of labouring’ ?

So, I will say it again – The only way God released Jesus from the agony of death is to have Jesus SAVED from the crucifixion itself AND THAT’S what God did.

tam wrote:
For what purpose?

JerryMyers Offline

No one can tell you that for sure as only God will know that just as no one, not even Jesus, can know the Hour but only God will know that.

tam wrote:
He did save Him. Raising Him from the dead.

JerryMyers Offline

‘Raising him from the dead’ can be a metaphorical statement meaning Jesus was saved from what is a sure certain death, that is, from the crucifixion which was for sure would be a certain death for him. Its not uncommon to hear people said that they came back from the dead after going thru or saved from certain death ordeals.

tam wrote:
Sure. After the parable of the sower in Matthew 13, His disciple asked Him why He spoke to the people in parables. His answer to them is in verses 11-15, beginning with, “…the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them…”. Then He explains to them the meaning of the parable in verse 18,

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means…”

After this He speaks in more parables, and His disciples come and ask Him what he meant by the parable of the weeds in the field, and He explained it to them. (verses 36- 43)

Second witness in Luke 8:9-15

JerryMyers Offline

Thanks for the examples. What was clear here was that his disciples have no clues as to what he was talking and they HAD TO ASK him for the explanations – its not that for his disciples he would just explain to them WITHOUT having to be asked, which is the impression I got from you when you said for his disciples he would explain to them. I am sure that if other people, who are not his disciples, asked him for explanations, he would explain to them too.

tam wrote:
I am confused because you still have not answered my question. Are you saying that He never died at all? Ever?

JerryMyers Offline

I thought that was very clear and obvious. Yes, I am saying Jesus never die from the time he was born to the time he ascended to God. Why do you think I asked you “Did Jesus say he died and rose from the dead AFTER the supposedly crucifixion ??” ?

tam wrote:
As [Jesus] was going up to Jerusalem, He took the twelve disciples aside and said, “Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and scribes. They will condemn Him to death and will deliver Him to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life.” Matthew 20:17-19

JerryMyers Offline

Of course, Jesus himself would not know for sure he will be saved so, under his circumstances, he can and did expect himself to be betrayed, tried unfairly and sentenced to death.

tam wrote:
He predicted it. Then it happened. Exactly as He had predicted.

JerryMyers Offline

On the contrary – he expected it, that is, he WILL be betrayed, falsely charged for blasphemy and sentenced to death. Then it happened, that is, he WAS betrayed, WAS falsely charged for blasphemy and WAS sentenced to death. Exactly as he expected.

tam wrote:
No, I am asking how was it made to appear so unto them and for what purpose.

What exactly happened that it appeared to them that some other man was Christ?

JerryMyers Offline

‘No’ would mean you would agree that it’s NOT impossible for God to make it ‘to appear so unto them’ and you are just asking how it was done and for what purpose – would that be a fair assessment of your statement above ??
JerryMyers Offline

tam wrote:
I clipped the rest of your response because it does not answer my question. Why did none of them mention the idea that He did not die and was not crucified, if that is what Christ told them afterward?

JerryMyers Offline

After the crucifixion and the supposedly resurrection, the Bible did not record Jesus explicitly saying he died and was resurrected nor did it record Jesus explicitly saying he did not die. So, we are left with what Jesus did say and the reactions of the people who saw him alive after the supposedly resurrection. Based on what we have in the Bible, that after the supposedly resurrection, his words and the reactions of those who saw him, tells us Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified.

tam wrote:
It is not up to us.

JerryMyers Offline

Correct. Then, why are you questioning God for what purpose He would make it appear so unto them in the case of Jesus’ crucifixion ??

tam wrote:
this from happening, and TWICE Christ rebuked Him.

From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!” But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:21 – 23

JerryMyers Offline

Peter was just reacting as any concerned man would do. Would you allow your father or loved one go to a place that you know will bring harm and will pose a grave danger to him ?

tam wrote:
“I told you that I am He,” Jesus replied. “So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.” This was to fulfill the word He had spoken: “I have not lost one of those You have given Me.” Then Simon Peter drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. “Put your sword back in its sheath! Jesus said to Peter. “Shall I not drink” the cup the Father has given Me?

Notice also His first words, “if you are looking for me, let these men go”.

These are not the words of a man who would allow someone else to suffer and die in his place, being mistaken for Him.

JerryMyers Offline

You need to understand the circumstances and the environment Jesus was in. Here, Jesus knew the Jews were only interested to arrest him, NOT any of his disciples. So, instead of having all his disciples arrested or harmed, Jesus did the right thing and asked the soldiers who came to arrest him to leave the others alone since they came ONLY to arrest him, NOT his disciples. Again, Jesus did the right thing when Simon Peter drew his sword, he asked him to put back his sword in its sheath. WHY ? Because it was only ONE man who drew out his sword to fight NOT everyone and it would not be possible for one man to overcome the soldiers. Would Jesus do the same thing if all his followers had drawn their swords to defend him from being arrested ? The answer is NO, he would allow his followers to fight for him. So, your statement that Jesus will not allow anyone to suffer and die (as a possible outcome of fighting to defend him) is FALSE and BASELESS.

tam wrote:
How and for what purpose? And if that were true, why did none of His apostles state so (or believe it) after Christ supposedly came and told them He had not been crucified?

JerryMyers Offline

As I said it was only made to appear so unto them and as you said, its not up to us to know. I can only speculate as to for what purpose BUT its only God who will know His true purpose just as many people can speculate when will be the Hour BUT its only God who know the actual Hour.

tam wrote:
Actually, your reasoning lends even more credence to the fact that Christ was crucified. Because He would have proved that He would not give up on God, even during torture and suffering and death, even though He asked for the cup to be removed from Him (only if possible, though. He never wanted His will to usurp His Father’s will).

JerryMyers Offline

Not really. You are assuming that Jesus’ prayers for God to save him are not answered BUT you are wrong as even the scriptures said his prayers to save him from his ordeal will be answered by God.

tam wrote:
There is no contradiction. He was not dead when He appeared to His apostles. He had been raised from the dead. Raised to life. So He was alive when He appeared to His apostles and He was alive when He ascended into heaven.

JerryMyers Offline

Again, if he was not dead when he appeared to his apostles, that’s because he was never crucified. ‘Raised from the dead’ can be a metaphorical statement meaning he was saved from a sure and certain death.

tam wrote:
Are you not the son of your father? The son of a man? Would you then turn around and describe yourself as “a man, the son?”

JerryMyers Offline

Of course, I am the son of my father (a man), however, it would also not be wrong for me to say I am a man, the son, now would it ? Although that would be repetitive for a normal person as its understood that a son must be a man.

tam wrote:
I do not know why people say God the Son, except perhaps to indicate that God is a trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

But Christ is the Son of His Father (God); like you are the son of your father (a man).

JerryMyers Offline

Well, on this matter, you just cannot equate Jesus to any normal man as Jesus do not have a biological father. So, when you said Jesus is the son of God, the correct understanding from the Bible is that he is the servant of God. It does not matter whether you capitalised the letter ‘s’ for ‘Son of God’ or not as the original manuscripts from which all the English Bibles you have today are translated from, are in a semitic language (Hebrew, Latin Greek, Aramaic) which do not make any distinction between capital letters and small letters.

The impression I get from you is that Jesus was born out of God which would mean he is also God as say, the offspring of a leopard has to be a leopard too. However, you said Jesus is not God, which is rather confusing.

Peace to you too, Tammy.

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