Jesus was not dead on the Cross, in the first place

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=108733&start=10

TEP wrote:

In order to be resurrected, surely you have to have been alive and died first. So, unless you can show that this snowman was walking around before he disappeared, then what you have proven is not a resurrection, but the existence of golems.

Paarsurrey wrote:

Hi friend TEP

There you are absolutely right.

Looking into the Bible intently it seems that at the end of the event of Crucifixion, there was some sort of underhand dealing between Pilate- Paarsurreythe Roman Official, and the friends of Jesus. Jesus’ legs were not broken as was customary; while legs of the thieves crucified with Jesus were broken. Jesus’ legs were spared; what difference would it have made if his legs were also broken? If Jesus was a god, as Catholics Protestants believe, and he was to get resurrected from the dead; he would have resurrected even if Jesus was minced to pieces. But Jesus was only a human being, so with the collaboration of friends of Jesus and Pilate his legs were not broken; in stead, Jesus was taken hurriedly to a tomb spacious enough to have a big hole which could be termed as door, and another hole which could be termed as a ventilator; lest Jesus who was near-dead but alive, does not get suffocated and becomes really dead. The tomb in which Jesus was laid could accommodate 3/4 persons i.e., physicians and/or attendants, for treatment of the wounds Jesus got inflicted upon the Cross.

So, Jesus was not dead in the first place as we have seen above from the Bible, if studied deeply; there is no question of Jesus’ resurrection, not in the least.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Faith, religion, alive, died first, resurrection, Bible, Crucifixion, Pilate, underhand deal, Roman Officials, friends of Jesus, Jesus’ legs were not broken, If Jesus was a god, Catholics, Protestants, tomb, suffocation, physicians, attendants, treatment, wounds, Cross,

41 Responses to “Jesus was not dead on the Cross, in the first place”

  1. theoriginalshawn Says:

    Jesus’ legs were not broken because the Roman soldier had seen that He was already dead. Also, the soldier pierced Jesus’ side with his spear, and blood and water flowed from Jesus’ body. If water has separated from the blood of a person, that person is dead.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend theoriginalshawn

      Please note that Roman soldier was not a physician; if he ever uttered such words Pilate must have called a physician to check if Jesus had died or he was still alive. No physician was called to witness it.

      Would you please answer some in this connection?

      Do you think that if Jesus’ legs would have been broken or he would have been minced to pieces; Jesus would have still resurrected?

      Do you think that if Jesus would not have been taken to a tomb; hurriedly as it was done, and he would have been left in the open, with Jews looking on him as it was a sign promised to Jews by Jesus; would Jesus still have resurrected?

      That would have definitely made it a bigger sign. You would agree. Don’t you?

      Do you think if Jesus’ body would have not been wrapped with a lot of wrappings, as you know it was done to Jesus; after applying with a lot of ointment made from aloe and myrrh brought by Nicodemus in exhorbitantly excessive quantity? You know this was all done against the burial customs of Jews; there is no such proof from the first century Jews.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  2. theoriginalshawn Says:

    Would you answer this for me first? Do you disagree that water seperated from blood denotes death?
    One need not be a physician to understand that a person is dead; especially if that body remains unresponsive after being stabbed with a spear.
    I don’t take offense that you have such different views, and note that it’s refreshing to have a discussion on a delicate subject without being bullied.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend theoriginalshawn

      I am sorry; if you think I bullied you in my above post. You may if you like to reply; no compulsion.

      I don’t think it is mentioned in Bible that water separated from blood came out of the body of the Jesus who was still alive nevetheless in near-dead position.

      In my opinion blood mixed with water are sign of Jesus’ life.

      So Jesus never died a cursed death on the cross.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  3. theoriginalshawn Says:

    My point was that you have not bullied me, but that you are discussing the matter. My first and last conversation about God was with an athiest who was very hateful and did not have any discussion, so this talk is refreshing. No apology necessary.
    Also, scripture says, “Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.” This clearly indicates that blood, seperate from water, flowed from Jesus’ wound. This does not happen in a living body.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend theorigianshawn

      I would say that the scripture says “Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.”, and it does not say blood separate from water, as you have earlier stated.

      Now ; would you please answer the pertinent questions I asked you and you promised to answer? There is however no compulsion to answer the question; only if you feel interested in the topic.

      Please don’t mind; we are only searching and discussing for truth.

      I respect your faith.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  4. theoriginalshawn Says:

    You still have not answered my question: do you agree or disagree that blood seperate from water denotes death? But I will answer your question. I believe the Bible is the word of God, and all its contents are truth. What I would believe about things the Bible does not say is a moot point. If the Bible makes a distinction between blood and water, it does in fact mean they are seperate. Otherwise, the scripture might have read, “…there was a sudden flow of blood.”

  5. hvtbintl69 Says:

    YOU WROTE: Looking into the Bible intently it seems that at the end of the event of Crucifixion, there was some sort of underhand dealing between Pilate- Paarsurreythe Roman Official, and the friends of Jesus.

    Hi, I have a question. What archaeological support do you have for a “dealing” between the Romans and Jesus’ followers. What text are you referring to beyond the Bible for such a claim?

  6. paarsurrey Says:

    Hi friend hvtbintl69

    The support is found within the NTBible.; and there are many proofs within the Bible.

    One of them is Pilate expressed doubt that Jesus had died so soon.

    I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

    Thanks

  7. hvtbintl69 Says:

    Where in scripture does Pilate doubt Christs death/soon? Chapter/Verse? To answer my last question. There is “no archaeological evidence” that there was any collusion/conspiracy/agreement between Jesus’ followers and any one else. What scripture verses are you referring to in support of underhand dealing between Pilate- Paarsurrey the Roman Official, and the friends of Jesus. Who was Paarsurrey? He’s not in scripture or in any archaeological records related to the gospels. I have a Bachelors of Science and Ancient History/Archaeology. What is your academic background?

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friends

      I am not a Scholar nor I have a claim to piety. I am not an Archaeologist nor I think one has to be necessarily an Archaeologist to prove a thing nor one has to be necessarily a Scientist. I am an ordinary man in the street. I don’t follow any person or ideaology blindly; but with reason, rationality and logical arguments.Have you a blind faith?

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

      Thanks

  8. hvtbintl69 Says:

    I follow Christianity the same as you follow Islam. With reason, rationality, logical arguments and science that supports the Bible. My faith is not blind when it has “support” in many areas (logic, science etc;)

    Thanks

  9. hvtbintl69 Says:

    I agree we have common points yet it is my desire as a Christian that you understand the differences because Eternity is a long time. The reason why Christians celebrate Easter is because Jesus bought eternity for us – he was the perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus died on the cross – it was not someone that “seemed” like him, it was him and he rose.

    Thanks.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend “hvtbintl69”

      I don’t agree here:

      1. I don’t think Jesus, who was a Jesus and his mother Mary also; they ever celebrated Easter- of the Catholics Protestants.

      2. Jesus never bought any eternity for anybody; he himself died a natural and peaceful death in India.

      3. Jesus never sacrificed himself for anybody’s sins.

      4. Jesus never died on the Cross; he was alive when delivered from the Cross but in a near-dead position; that is why his friends took him hurriedly to a spacious tomb for treatment; so that he does not get suffocated.

      5. Jesus never died on the Cross; so there is no question for his beings risen from the dead.

      I think you understand.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  10. hvtbintl69 Says:

    I understand your beliefs but what are they based upon? The evidence? Of course Mary/Jesus they never celebrated Easter. Jesus was the originator.

    There is no evidence that Jesus survived the cross nor is there any evidence that he died in Kashmir years later. Nothing in archaeology or scripture verifies it.

    Jesus was dead on the cross, his friends put him into the tomb due to the oncoming Sabbath not any kind of conspiracy with the Romans. No removal occurred.

    Thanks

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend hvtbintl69

      If Jesus would have been the originator of the Easter , the annual feast of the Christians; he must have celebrated it himself. In fact Jesus was not founder of the “Christianity”; it was Paul who founded “Christianity”:

      1. Paul only used Christ’s name as a scapegoat

      2. to spread his own (Paul’s) Theology invented at Rome

      3. and also to take revenge from Jesus who had escaped death on Cross

      4. by spoiling Jesus’ true teachings

      5. and who (Jesus) had gone out of the reach of Paul who was a dead enemy of Jesus and his friends.

      Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity of Paul and the Church.

      I have given numerous proofs to that effect in my posts in my blog; you or other Christians of 32000+ denominations are welcome to refute them if you like, with your reasonable, rational and logical argument. I don’t think Christians could refute them. It is an inter-faith discussion blog; everybody is welcome to join the discussions opened by me in my posts. I respect all the 32000+ denominations of the Christians. Even JWs or Mormons who declare to be the only true Christians are welcome here. Everybody is invited to join the discussion.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  11. theoriginalshawn Says:

    paarsurrey, would you care to answer my question?

  12. theoriginalshawn Says:

    You said:
    Hi friend theorigianshawn

    I would say that the scripture says “Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.”, and it does not say blood separate from water, as you have earlier stated.

    I replied:
    theoriginalshawn Says:
    February 10, 2010 at 10:06 pm | Reply

    You still have not answered my question: do you agree or disagree that blood seperate from water denotes death?
    paarsurrey Says:
    February 10, 2010 at 6:50 pm | Reply

  13. paarsurrey Says:

    Hi friend theoriginalshawn
    John 19:34
    But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water.

    I have quoted the verse from the Bible; it does not say that coming of water and blood was sign of death. So Jesus was near-dead but alive. I am not a Physician.

    I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

    Thanks

    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  14. theoriginalshawn Says:

    Again, do you agree or disagree that blood separate from water in the body of a human being denotes death?

  15. theoriginalshawn Says:

    I have, as have you, but you continue to refuse to answer my question or accept what scripture teaches, although apparently believe this part of scripture, written by Paul, to be truth, since you use this as a source. You may ask physicians as well concerning water separated from blood.

  16. theoriginalshawn Says:

    excuse me, of course written by John not Paul.

  17. theoriginalshawn Says:

    I have written freely. I have asked a simple question: do you agree or disagree that water separated from blood in the body of a human being means that the body is dead? If you are telling me you wish not to answer, that’s fine. I also was pointing out that you reference this passage as though it were truth.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi

      I think you are locked in thoughts and stuck up somewhere for nothing. Let me pull you out of your intermingled locks; maybe it helps you.

      It is quite obvious that the truthful disciples of Jesus did not believe that Jesus had died on the Cross. It is for this reason that they asked for the body of Jesus, from Pilate, to be handed over to them; and when it was handed over to them they hurriedly took him to the tomb of Joseph of Armethia.What for and why this hurry? If Jesus was physically dead and was to get alive anyhow in some days; no hurry, worry or panic for his friends. It suited them and Jesus to let Jesus be in the open and not be buried; so that the Jews who had demanded of a sign from Jesus and Jesus had promised them to show the sign; the Jews would have seen Jesus becoming alive before their very eyes and believed him.

      But they did not leave Jesus in the open; because they knew that Jesus had not died so he should be treated for his injuries.

      I think you would agree to it; and it will pull you out of your fix.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  18. hvtbintl69 Says:

    SHAWN, Dont waste your time on this guy. He’s not interested in answers only opinions he cannot defend.

    If Jesus would have been the originator of the Easter , the annual feast of the Christians; he must have celebrated it himself. In fact Jesus was not founder of the “Christianity”; it was Paul who founded “Christianity”:

    ANSWER: Without Jesus – no resurrection, no Paul conversion…

    1. Paul only used Christ’s name as a scapegoat

    ANSWER: Your evidence for this opinion comes from..?

    2. to spread his own (Paul’s) Theology invented at Rome

    ANSWER: Paul was from Tarsus, then moved to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel – not Rome…

    3. and also to take revenge from Jesus who had escaped death on Cross

    ANSWER: Jesus did not die in Kashmir…so far you’ve provided no strong science to support this idiotic idea. Jesus was in Egypt when he was young, Perhaps in Jordan for his baptism and traveled throughout Israel…that’s it.

    4. by spoiling Jesus’ true teachings

    ANSWER: What were Jesus’ true teachings?

    5. and who (Jesus) had gone out of the reach of Paul who was a dead enemy of Jesus and his friends.

    Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity of Paul and the Church.

    Q & A: Do you deny the ministry of Paul took place? Your support in “lack of evidence” > Go to my site and read FROM SAUL TO PAUL under “Bible Archaeology.”

    http://www.defendingthebible.com

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend hvtbintl69

      Jesus only believed in ONENESS of the Creator-God Allah YHWH, who accepted Jesus’ prayers Jesus had prayed in the garden of Gethsemane is spite of all odds. If Jesus had had any claim of divinity in him; he would have not prayed to anybody.His prayers prove that he was no god. Jesus worshipped the Creator- God Allah YHWH.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  19. theoriginalshawn Says:

    well, paarsurrey, this is my final effort.
    My question is designed to find a point at which we can agree on something within the realm of this specific topic, to bring clarity. You need not take my word for it that water separated from blood in the body of any human being means that the body is certainly dead, you may ask a doctor, as I have. This was a simple question with a simple yes or no answer, and I was not asking about Jesus; just scroll up and read the question, I was asking about a human being. If you wish to answer great, otherwise I’ll just presume you don’t know.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend theoriginalshawn

      If you have asked from a doctor as you say; please mention it here. We will discuss it here; fine with me.

      Your scripture does not mention that blood was separated from water and what that means.

      What I mean is that Jesus was not dead on the Cross; he was delivered from the Cross alive but in a near-death position; his trusted friends (not the deserting ones) knew that Jesus was alive. It is for this reason that they did not perform the actions necessary when a death occurs. They did not give a funeral bath to Jesus as was customary; as they knew he was alive and he did not need a funeral bath. No funeral service was announced for Jesus which is customary. All these things point out for certain that Jesus was alive.

      One must remember that “three days and three nights” or the “belly of the fish or of the Earth” is not a machine which creates gods; it has never done so. Jonah did not become god; it only proved that Jonah had the truthful message from the Creator- God Allah YHWH; similarly Jesus was a truthful Messenger and Prophet of God Allah YHWH. It is as simple as that; it does not matter if the blood and water were separated or not; that is not the question here.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  20. theoriginalshawn Says:

    As I’ve mentioned; you need not take my word for it. However, I have several friends who work as doctors and they confirm that water separated from blood denotes death. The reason this matters is because it is one sign that Jesus was in fact alive. Let me put it to you this way: where do you suggest the water came from when the centurion pierced Jesus’ side while He was on the cross?

  21. paarsurrey Says:

    Hi friend theoriginalshawn

    As I said earlier; the scriptures do not mention that blood separated from water came out of Jesus. I gave a quote from the scriptures. The doctors whould answer your question as per the data you provide to them; if you hold up your data; the answer would be different; if you reveal the full data, the answer would be different.

    In addition to it one should remember that the four gospel writers; none of them was present at the scene of the Cross; they all had fled away. They were not trustworthy person; they never trusted Jesus and Jesus never trusted them.They wrote from hearsay.

    Now I would request you to provide exact words of the question you put to the doctors and their consensus answer. We shall discuss it here. It would be appropriate if the doctors write here for themselves; why should be they shy of it? These are the question that concern their and your faith. Am I right?

    I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

    Thanks

    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  22. theoriginalshawn Says:

    hm, do they or do they not say that water and blood flowed from the wound?
    Also, do you believe the scriptures are truth or not? I’ll let anyone reading this discussion to do their own research on the subject of water separated from blood.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend theoriginalshawn

      So you added from yourself the word “separated” to your scriptures so that you get the answer you cherish most. I think that you also mislead the doctors for getting the answer you liked.

      I don’t mind; this is what the Church has been doing for centuries. They have corrupted their scriptures like this. It has got nothing to do with Jesus.

      Also please note that Nicodemus brought an accessive quantity of aloe and myrr of about 75 pounds; which is not needed for funeral; it was for preparation of an ointment applied on Jesus’ body for treatment of injuries.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  23. theoriginalshawn Says:

    Think what you like, it changes nothing. Ask any doctor you like, though I doubt you will. Would you like me to keep repeating myself, or does this mean you do not wish to answer the question?

  24. wudjab Says:

    You need to try harder Paar,

    According to your own Quran :

    [4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him – they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*

    and the reason they did not break his legs ?

    John 19:36

    These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”

    Now if you spent as much time learning about the real Islam (ahmediya’s are not considered Muslims after all) as you do trying to discredit Christianity, you might be better served.

    • paarsurrey Says:

      Hi friend wudjab

      Well my friend; “Mormons” and “JWs”- the only true Christians, do consider the Catholics and Protestants as heretics. Are you a Mormon or a JW? Please mention so that we may proceed further in the discussion.

      I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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