http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4701&p=91500#p91500
Paarsurrey says:
Hi friends
Jesus never claimed to be a god in the literal sense of the word; it is but a wishful thinking of the Catholics Protestants that they make a god out of him for nothing, just for their own selfish and easy salvation.
If Jesus sometimes used the terms god or son of god for his person he did it in the same meaning other righteous persons of Jews i.e. the Messengers Prophets had used these terms for them; no different.
John 10:34-36
31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? 33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50010.htm
This clearly showed that what he meant was only a parable or a metaphoric language; claiming to be Messenger Prophet, a righteous person. He elaborated that they were wrongly accusing him when those Jews on whom Word of God descended OT Bible terms them God; he was one like them only, so he should not be blamed or stoned..
The Catholics Protestants should come out of the trick of the cunning Paul and the Church and accept Jesus as one of the perfect men called Messengers Prophets of the Creator- God Allah YHWH.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
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paarsurrey 
January 21, 2010 at 7:13 pm |
If Jesus never claimed divinity then what was the charge for which the Jews found Him guilty and deserving of death by crucifixion?
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January 21, 2010 at 11:38 pm |
Hi friend
The Jews wanted to kill Jesus for his claim of being a prophet; and Jesus they held to be a false prophet and for this they hanged Jesus to further prove that Jesus was a cursed man also.
In the Old Testament
“If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, ‘Let us follow other gods’ (gods you have not known) ‘and let us worship them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you” (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).
The penalty for false prophecy, according to the biblical context, is capital punishment (per Deuteronomy 13:1-5).
“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Deuteronomy 21:
22 When a man hath committed a crime for which he is to be punished with death, and being condemned to die is hanged on a gibbet: 23 His body shall not remain upon the tree, but shall be buried the same day: for he is accursed of God that hangeth on a tree: and thou shalt not defile thy land, which the Lord thy God shall give thee in possession.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/05021.htm
Jonah was a Prophet of God Allah YHWH; if Jesus promised Jews to show them Sign of Jonah and he considered it to be his biggest sign; then Jesus could only be a Prophet and not a god. This also shows that he considered himself to be only a Prophet of God Allah YHWH; and that is why God Allah YHWH saved Jesus life and after that Jesus went to India.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
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January 22, 2010 at 1:30 am |
You quote from the Bible as the source for your answer. That’s great. Do you know what the Bible says concerning the charge made by the Jews against Jesus?
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January 22, 2010 at 12:33 pm |
Hi friend Aaron
Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.
Jesus pegged his biggest sign with Jonah; and Jonah was only a Prophet; for just repeating the same sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? The Catholics and Protestants should ponder over this; if they believe in an iota of reason in the NTBible.
Since you believe in OTBible, please quote the punishment Jews had from Moses for the claimant of divinity?
Perhaps that answers your question also.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
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January 22, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Hi,
It sounds like you want it both ways. You did not quote Matthew’s Gospel about the charge Jesus was condemned: blasphemy (an example of Jesus’ claim to divine authority). But you reference Matthew’s Gospel about Jonah. I think philosophers call what you are doing the fallacy of “manufacturing facts from a theory” and/or “special pleading”. You are rewriting the New Testament to fit your procrustean bed.
Would you please explain why you don’t believe Jesus was condemned for blasphemy as it is recorded in Matthew 26:65 and why you believe Matthew 12:39-41? From Matthew’s Gospel, can you tell me what texts of the Old Testament Jesus used in His response to the High Priest (Matthew 26:64)?
Jesus’ death, resurrection, and empty tomb is good news for all who believe. Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24).
Regards,
Aaron
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January 22, 2010 at 12:39 pm |
[…] The sign which did not make Jonah a god; how could the same sign make Jesus a god? By paarsurrey https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/ […]
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January 22, 2010 at 4:32 pm |
Hi friends Aaron
I think I had already elaborated my position regarding gospels in my previous post:
Quote: “Since NTBible is neither Word of God nor even a word of Jesus; its authors are anonymous people and have been named Matthew, Mark, John and Luke, just to add some credulity to these gospels; I believe only that statements of NTBible which are not against Quran.” Unquote.
If Jesus never attempted to write any gospels in Judea; how could I dare write it? It was cunning Paul and the clever Church who got hold of anonymous writings and for their own motives and after editing and naming arbitrarily, presented it as Gospels. Jesus had nothing to do with this plethora of writings. He never authorized or dictated anybody to publish this stuff in his absence when he was alive and living happily in India.
I was waiting for you response to mention punishment of claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses. Would you please respond?
May the Creator- God Allah YHWH bless you! and open your heart for acceptance of truth.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
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January 22, 2010 at 5:08 pm |
The punishment for blasphemy, according to Mosaic Law, was death (Leviticus 24:16; see also John 19:7).
I would be helped if you addressed in greater detail what I perceive to be your logical fallacies and procrustean dealing with Christian Scripture and history.
A few more questions for which I am awaiting response:
Why don’t you believe Jesus was condemned for blasphemy as it is recorded in Matthew 26:65 and yet you believe Matthew 12:39-41?
From Matthew’s Gospel, can you tell me what texts of the Old Testament Jesus used in His response to the High Priest (Matthew 26:64)?
I invite you to love the Jesus of history as recorded in Scripture. Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26).
Regards,
Aaron
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January 22, 2010 at 8:17 pm
Hi friend Aaron
You say “The punishment for blasphemy, according to Mosaic Law, was death (Leviticus 24:16”.
Let us see what is mentioned in the verses quoted by you.
Leviticus 24:10-20
10 And behold there went out the son of a woman of Israel, whom she had of an Egyptian, among the children of Israel, and fell at words in the camp with a man of Israel.
11 And when he had blasphemed the name, and had cursed it, he was brought to Moses: (now his mother was called Salumith, the daughter of Dabri, of the tribe of Dan:) 12 And they put him into prison, till they might know what the Lord would command. 13 And the Lord spoke to Moses, 14 Saying: Bring forth the blasphemer without the camp, and let them that heard him, put their hands upon his head, and let all the people stone him. 15 And thou shalt speak to the children of Israel: the man that curseth his God, shall bear his sin:
16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die: all the multitude shall stone him, whether he be a native or a stranger. He that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die. 17 He that striketh and killeth a man, dying let him die. 18 He that killeth a beast, shall make it good, that is to say, shall give beast for beast. 19 He that giveth a blemish to any of his neighbours: as he hath done, so shall it be done to him: 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, shall he restore. What blemish he gave, the like shall he be compelled to suffer.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/03024.htm
Now we look into the verses as mentioned by you.
1. Now the passage mentions the man “he had blasphemed the name, and had cursed it”, it does not say with transparency that the man claimed to be God; he cursed God as is written there and that does not make one claimant of divinity, for sure.
2. So I don’t think that you have been able to quote any appropriate verse for punishment of a claimant of God from Moses.
3. Unless you mention such a verse; I don’t think that there was any punishments of claiming a god; as it is obviously a crazy claim for a human being; does not involve any punishment in this world as there is no ambiguity in it.
4. How could Jesus make such a crazy claim? And why should he when he was not a god; he did not die on Cross and like Moses who migrated from Egypt to Arabian Peninsula to save his life; so did Jesus, he was delivered from the Cross in near-dead position and later when he recovered from the injuries, secretly, he made good his escape to India; so like Moses he was only a Prophet of God.
5. If as you say (though it is totally incorrect) that Jesus claimed literal divinity; then the Jews should have insisted that Jesus be stoned in the public as per the Law of Moses; they preferred to hang him on the Cross, just to prove that he was a cursed man; and that Jesus was not he was Chosen-One of God and His beloved.
Please find some transparent verses from Moses in the issue to strengthen your claim.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks and regards
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January 22, 2010 at 4:44 pm |
[…] Punishment for claimants of divinity in Jews from Moses By paarsurrey https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/#comments […]
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January 22, 2010 at 4:57 pm |
Hi friends
I further have to add here which has a relevance to the present discussion.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah, the Second Coming says:
It should also be remembered that the clergy’s collection of
scriptures is completely worthless and even embarrassing.
They whimsically declare some books to be divine and
others to be forged. They judge these four Gospels to be
authentic and the rest—about fifty-six of them—forged.
But this belief is based on mere guesswork and speculation,
rather than on any concrete evidence. They have had
to make these decisions by themselves, for there is a
marked discrepancy between these and the other Gospels.
Researchers, however, believe that it is not possible to determine
which of them is actually forged and which is not.
This is why, on the occasion of King Edward’s coronation,
the Church fathers of London presented him with the books
which they presume to be forged along with the four Gospels,
all bound in one volume. I possess a copy of this
Bible. Now, if these books had really been forged and were
unholy, would it not be all bound in one volume
The fact is that these people are
unable to say with any degree of conviction whether any of
these books are authentic or forged, and everyone goes by
their own opinion. Out of mere prejudice, they declare
those Gospels to be fabricated which are in accord with the
Holy Quran. Hence they have declared the Gospel of
Barnabas to have been forged because it contains a clear
prophecy about the Prophet of the Latter Days sa [the Holy
Prophet]. Sale, in his commentary, has related the story of
a Christian monk who was converted to Islam after reading
this Gospel.
Remember, these people declare a book to be
false or fabricated for either of these two reasons:
1. If an account or a book contradicts the current Gospels.
2. If an account or a book has some similarity with the
Holy Quran.
Some mischievous and black-hearted people
first try to establish the principle that these books are fabricated,
and then claim that the Holy Quran contains
stories taken out of them, and in this manner they try to
deceive the ignorant.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Fountain-of-Christianity-20080505MN.pdf
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
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January 22, 2010 at 5:07 pm |
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote,
After all that has been stated, it should be kept in mind that in the gospel of Barnabas, which must be available in the British Museum, it is stated that Jesus was not crucified, not did he die on the Cross. Now we can very well say that though this book is not included in the gospels and has been rejected summarily, yet there is no doubt that it is an ancient book, and it belongs to the period in which the other gospels were written. Is it not open to us to regard this ancient book as a book of history of ancient times and to make use of it as a book of history? (http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html)
The assertion “yet there is no doubt that it [gospel of Barnabas] is an ancient book, and it belongs to the period in which the other gospels were written…” is simply false. The fact is that the above comments should cast doubt whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad knew what he was talking about.
The Gospel of Barnabas was not written by the Barnabas who lived in the 1st century AD. The Gospel of Barnabas appears to have been written in the 16th century AD, “The Gospel [of Barnabas] is considered by the majority of academics (including Christians and some Muslims) to be late and pseudepigraphical…” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_barnabas
I realize that Wikipedia is not always the best source for information and so here is a quote from a highly acclaimed academic encyclopedia,
“A text called the Gospel of Barnabas has had a wide circulation in modern times. It was discovered in an Italian manuscript in Amsterdam in 1709. Since its translation into Arabic in the early 20th century, some have claimed that it preserves the original Gospel, of which the Qurʾān speaks. In fact, the Gospel of Barnabas has been shown to have its origins in the western Mediterranean world, probably in Spain, in the 16th century.”
Citation: “Gospel.” Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān. General Editor: Jane Dammen McAuliffe . Brill (Leiden and Boston), 2005. CD-ROM version.
I invite you to love the Jesus of history as recorded in Scripture.
Regards,
Aaron
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January 23, 2010 at 7:49 pm
Hi again,
I agree with you that Deuteronomy 13 is relevant to the charge for which Jesus was condemned (along with other passages such as Leviticus 24:16). In the (wrong) opinion of the court, Jesus was leading Israel astray after “other gods” by claiming for Himself divine authority (e.g. Deuteronomy 13:2). Jesus was telling the truth under oath; therefore, He was not blaspheming or leading others astray after Himself when He claimed divine authority over the High Priest, Sanhedrin, and unbelieving Israel (Matthew 26:64-65).
There are some titles, attributes, and deeds that belong only to God. Jesus claimed these for Himself on other occasions when He forgave sins (Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:2-12) and taught “Before Abraham was born, I AM” (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14-15 and also Isaiah 41:4; 43:10, 13, 25; 46:4; 48:12; 51:12; 52:6).
You asked the question, “How could Jesus make such a crazy claim?” Answer: Because it was true and because Jesus has authority mere men do not have. He has authority to judge in a way we cannot, He has authority to forgive sin in a way you and I cannot. Jesus has authority to remove the consequences of the curse of sin in a way that you and I cannot ([re]read Mark 2:2-12).
I’m still awaiting your response to the following:
Please address in greater detail what I perceive to be your logical fallacies and procrustean dealing with Christian Scripture and history.
Why don’t you believe Jesus was condemned for blasphemy as it is recorded in Matthew 26:65 and yet you believe Matthew 12:39-41?
From Matthew’s Gospel, can you tell me what texts of the Old Testament Jesus used in His response to the High Priest in Matthew 26:64?
I invite you to love the Jesus of history, the true Promised Messiah, as recorded in Scripture,
“Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped” (Revelation 5:11-14).
Regards,
Aaron
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January 23, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Aaron Says:
Paarsurrey says:
Hi friend Aaron
I thank you for acknowledging that the Jews tried to punish Jesus for his claim of Prophet-hood or Messenger-ship; and it was not for Jesus claiming any divinity which Jesus had never done in literal terms.
Jesus never claimed any literal divinity (being the Creator- God Allah YHWH) in him and he never showed any signs for that. Jesus did not create any Sun to make two Suns; or he did not create any more Moons to make them two moons or a further additional Earth where people could go and inhibit it ; everything remained the same as far the creation is concerned; there was no visible or invisible change in the Universe. Jesus only claimed being a Messenger or Prophet like so many before him.
Jesus could therefore not claim any deity for himself.
It is Paul who claimed it for Jesus only to be-fool the so called “Christians”. Paul frustrated the claim Jesus had made of a truthful Prophet Messenger. Paul on the face of it promoted Jesus from a Prophet Messenger to a god; and in reality with cunning-ness he deprived him of the both. He made Jesus a false Messenger Prophet by hanging him on the Cross with the purpose of dieing on the Cross; and thus receiving and acknowledging receipt and execution of the punishment prescribed by Moses for a false Prophet Messenger.
Since Jesus did not die on the Cross, after treatment in the tomb where he was laid, of his injuries inflicted on him on the Cross he made good his escape to India; so the basis carved by Paul for Jesus’ divinity never materialized.
Paul succeeded in be-fooling the Catholics Protestants; till such time this infamy put on Jesus by Paul was exposed by Muhammad when he exonerated Jesus of such wrongs by receiving a Word from the Creator-God Allah YHWH.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
Thanks
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January 24, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Aaron wrote:
I invite you to love the Jesus of history, the true Promised Messiah, as recorded in Scripture.
Paarsurrey says:
There is no infallible historicity of the Catholic Protestant Scriptures. Jesus lived up to the age of 120 years. The Catholic Protestant Scriptures give only 3 years of Jesus life in Judea and that only for a specific purpose which makes it a biased resource; one could simply judge the historicity of the scripture from it.
There is hardly any account of Jesus life before three years of his childhood and what he did before the age of 27 years in Egypt or elsewhere in the Catholic Protestant Scriptures.
When Jesus made good his escape to India from a cursed death in consequence of Jews putting him on the Cross; the Catholic Protestant Scriptures fail to record accounts of Jesus’ life in India and the neighboring countries.
Even these three years accounts of Jesus life in Judea have contradicting reports of the events.
For instance I just take one:
Matthew records that all the disciple of Jesus had fled away from the scene of the Cross and they deserted Jesus.
John says that a beloved disciple of Jesus was there and Jesus asked him to take care of his mother Mary; the other Gospels don’t record it. Even John mentions it in third person; why should he be ashamed of mentioning his name in the first person if he was there; he was simply not there.
It is only a wishful thinking of the Catholic Protestant that their scriptures have any infallible historicity. No; that is not true.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran
Thanks
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January 24, 2010 at 12:40 pm
*No infallible historicity of the Catholic Protestant Scriptures*
*Aaron* wrote:
I invite you to love the Jesus of history, the true Promised Messiah, as recorded in Scripture.
*Paarsurrey* says:
Hi friend Aaron
There is no infallible historicity of the Catholic Protestant Scriptures. Jesus lived up to the age of 120 years. The Catholic Protestant Scriptures give only 3 years of Jesus life in Judea and that only for a specific purpose which makes it a biased resource; one could simply judge the historicity of the scripture from it.
There is hardly any account of Jesus life before three years of his childhood and what he did before the age of 27 years in Egypt or elsewhere in the Catholic Protestant Scriptures.
When Jesus made good his escape to India from a cursed death in consequence of Jews putting him on the Cross; the Catholic Protestant Scriptures fail to record accounts of Jesus’ life in India and the neighboring countries.
Even these three years accounts of Jesus life in Judea have contradicting reports of the events.
For instance I just take one:
Matthew records that all the disciple of Jesus had fled away from the scene of the Cross and they deserted Jesus.
John says that a beloved disciple of Jesus was there and Jesus asked him to take care of his mother deserted Jesus Mary; the other Gospels don’t record it. Even John mentions it in third person; why should he be ashamed of mentioning his name in the first person if he was there; he was simply not there.
It is only a wishful thinking of the Catholic Protestant that their scriptures have any infallible historicity. No; that is not true.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran
Thanks and regards
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January 22, 2010 at 8:23 pm |
[…] Jesus was not a crazy man to claim divinty By paarsurrey https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/#comments […]
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January 23, 2010 at 11:44 pm |
[…] Jesus made good his escape to India By paarsurrey https://paarsurrey.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/jesus-had-no-claim-on-divinity/#comment-886 […]
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