Hi
One may find the following discussion interesting on the issue of Jesus’ death on Cross or his not dying on it.
Scott Thong Says:
July 11, 08 at vide http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/the-locked-tomb-mystery-whodunit/ and concludes:
I do not know where you got your information from, but I contend that it is inferior to the logic and proof of my arguments.
paarsurrey Says: The comment is awaiting moderation.
July 11, 08
Hi
I respect your faith.
I have read the write-up as contained in (http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/01/17/the-locked-tomb-mystery-whodunit/) the whole of it. In my opinion there is a difference between a myth and a miracle. One cannot understand a phenomenon fully unless one compares it with others writing on the subject.The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has explained it in detail with very sound arguments. Kindly read his book “Jesus in India” , written a hundred years ago and compare it with your views and you will know the truth for sure. It only requires a little research.
The book “Jesus in India” can be accessed here freely:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html
Kindly read the book so that we could discuss it further. There is no harm if other persons reading our posts join in the discussion. Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross; he was a righteous person, I love him.
The myth (not the miracle) of Jesus dying on Cross was invented by Paul at Rome, when Jesus was in exile and alive in India. There is no mystery; if there was any, that has been solved by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 with a Word of revelation from GodAllahYHWH.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Tags: Cross, Crucifixion, death of Jesus, Jesus did not die on Cross, miracle, miracle of Jesus, myth, Paul, Paul's animosity towards Jesus, resurrection of Jesus, theological Philosophy of Paul, theology of Paul
July 11, 2008 at 5:20 pm |
Ahmadi:
I mean no offense in this comment to you.
Your mistaken even in your own belief, Sura 4:157-158 “but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.”
What disturbs me most about this verse, is that it paints Allah as a deceiver. Here he’s tricking mankind by making it appear as if Jesus was crucified, but in all actuality is expecting men to reject his trickery and accept that he went up to Heaven with Allah. Allah thus deceived many men, for Christianity spread rather quickly and it was 500years before Allah revealed that it was a trick through Muhammad. That is one reason why I reject the claims of Islam, because its 500years after the fact. Also notice how it says nothing about India in the Quran, just Jesus went to Allah. I notice also that in the foot notes of the book linked that the author did not seem to use the Quran. This also goes against what I’ve seen many Islamic Theologians state to what happened, Jesus either was on the cross(Some say stake) and taken up to heaven before death by Allah, or that Judas actually replaced Jesus on the cross or stake and died in his place, and Allah made Judas look like Jesus.
July 12, 2008 at 11:10 am |
Hi
The Christians and many Muslim believed that JesusYeshuaIssa went physically or literally to heaven till such time that GodAllahYHWH revealed Word from him on the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 that:
1. Jesus s/o Mary did not die a cursed death on Cross.
2. Jesus did not go to heaven or sky physically or literally direct from from the Cross or before Crucifixion or someone else was crucified in Jesus’ place as some Muslims believed.
3. Or that Jesus was laid dead in the tomb where he resurrected from the dead and mythically went to heaven as believed by many Christians.
GodAllahYHWH revealed on the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 the true and correct understanding of the verses in Quran for Muslim as well as correct understanding of verses of NTBible which prove undoubtedly that Jesus never died on the Cross but he lived longer and was saved a cursed death on Cross. Jesus died a natural death in India and is buried at Mohallah Khanyar, in Sirinagar, in India.
Presently I give correct understanding of the verses of Sura 4:157-158/159 of Quran as explained by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 in his own words:
Almighty God says in the Holy Quran: The Jews neither murdered Jesus, not did they kill him on the Cross; no, they only suspected that Jesus had died on the Cross; they did not have proof which could have convinced and satisfied them that Jesus (on whom be peace) had really died on the Cross.
In these verses Almighty God states that although it is true that Jesus was apparently placed on the Cross, and that they were determined to kill him; yet, it is wrong for Jews and Christians to suppose that Jesus did really die on the Cross. No, God created circumstances which saved Jesus from death on the Cross. Now, if one were just, one must say that what the Holy Quran had said against Jews and Christians turned out ultimately to be true. Investigations of a very high standard to-day have proved that Jesus had really been saved from death on the Cross. A study of the records shows that the Jews have never been able to reply to the question: How was it that Jesus died within two or three hours when his bones were not broken?
This has led the Jews to put in another plea — that they killed Jesus by the sword, whereas the ancient history of the Jews does not show that Jesus was killed by the sword. The majesty and power of the Divine Being made it dark in order that Jesus might be saved. There was an earthquake. Pilate’s wife saw a vision. The Sabbath night was about to fall, when it was improper to let a crucified body remain on the Cross. The magistrate, because of the terrible dream, became disposed towards the release of Jesus. All this was brought about simultaneously by God to save Jesus. Jesus himself was made to go into a swoon that he might be taken for dead. Through terrible signs like the earthquake, etc. there were produced in the Jews cowardice, and fear, and also fear of heavenly punishment.
There was also the fear lest the corpses should remain on their crosses during the Sabbath night. Again, the Jews, seeing Jesus in a swoon, thought that he was dead. It was dark. And there was an earthquake and great excitement. They also became anxious about their homes — how must the children be feeling in that darkness and earthquake? There was also a terror in their hearts that if this man was a liar and a Kafir, as they thought he was, why were mighty signs manifested at the moment of his suffering — signs which had not been manifested before. They were so upset that they no longer were in a position to satisfy themselves whether Jesus had really died, or what exactly his condition was. What had come about, however, was a Divine Design to save Jesus. This is hinted at in the verse… i.e., the Jews did not kill Jesus — God made them believe that they had killed him. This circumstance encourages the righteous to place great trust in God, that God can save His servants as He pleases.
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch2.html
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
July 12, 2008 at 4:07 pm |
paarsurrey:
“yet, it is wrong for Jews and Christians to suppose that Jesus did really die on the Cross.”
It shouldn’t be wrong for Jews or Romans to assume they killed Jesus. For they double checked to see if Jesus was dead with a thrust of the spear to his side.
“2. Jesus did not go to heaven or sky physically or literally direct from from the Cross or before Crucifixion or someone else was crucified in Jesus’ place as some Muslims believed.”
This account is held by from what I can tell and have seen, the majority Muslim theologians. So it appears that its a doctrinal issue in Islam, as to what happened to Jesus. Do to the simplicity of that Quranic narrative, “Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise,” it would be a false assumption to insert more information (as you have done) then whats in that verse. When your explanation has far surpassed the verse itself in complexity, that is a sure tell sign in legendary embellishment. Now you know why there are many Protestant denominations, the same thing happens with the Bible.
“NTBible which prove undoubtedly that Jesus never died on the Cross but he lived longer and was saved a cursed death on Cross.”
I’d love to see those verses. The issue I have noticed coming with Islamic theologians trying to explain verses, is that they fail to understand Christian lingo and theology, thus creating their own false interpretations and ideas of Christian verses.
“Presently I give correct understanding of the verses”
Islamic theologians say the same thing and believe this. You’ve provided me no good reason as to take your word over theirs.
“no, they only suspected that Jesus had died on the Cross; they did not have proof which could have convinced and satisfied them that Jesus (on whom be peace) had really died on the Cross.”
A Roman soldier speared Jesus in the side, revealing that Jesus had gone through shock (the water and blood mixture that shot out). Jesus clearly was dead, he was flogged to near death, he carried a cross and agonizing distance, he was then nailed to a cross, where you slowly suffocate. Jesus was clearly dead before the two criminals hanging next to him and witnesses heard him give up his spirit and breath his last. There is no good reason to assume that Jesus did not die, considering the circumstances. It would have had to of been pure trickery by Allah on people assuming he died, even on his disciples, those who followed him closest.
“No, God created circumstances which saved Jesus from death on the Cross.”
Jesus was saved from death by God, hence why he rose 3days later, he was thus saved from death. Also hi self prophetic understanding, when he told his disciples I will be like Jonah, 3 days in the belly of the whale.
“Investigations of a very high standard to-day have proved that Jesus had really been saved from death on the Cross.”
The majority of New Testament scholarship, including agnostics, atheists, and skeptics, accept that Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. Any study that states Jesus did not die on the cross was clearly done to a biased Islamic theology, because it is clear on where NT scholars stand. I suggest you read Larry Hurtado, Bart Ehrman(agnostic skeptic), Gerd Leudemann(atheist skeptic), Craig Blomberg, Pinchas Lapide (Jewish Theologian) and Craig Evans, to name a few. Bart and Gerd do not believe in miracles, nor do they believe Jesus is the messiah, but they both attest to the fact that Jesus was buried in Joseph’s tomb and that tomb was found empty. Pinchas Lapide, the Jewish theologian, believes the evidence clearly points to Jesus resurrecting and the empty tomb. He doesn’t believe Jesus is the messiah, but a precursor to the messiah to come. So simply saying scholars have said this isn’t going to do the trick. I’ve studied both Christian and skeptic scholar’s words on this, and as I stated above, the majority of them hold that Jesus was killed, and his tomb was found empty. In fact many of them hold this as the most verifiable fact of Jesus’ life.
“How was it that Jesus died within two or three hours when his bones were not broken?”
Death on the cross was not a set amount of hours. Also Jesus was on the cross 6hours, he was placed on the cross at the 3rd hr, at the 6th hr darkness began to set across the land, and he died at the 9th hr. Jesus’ legs were not broken because he was dead already. The other 2 criminals needed to die quickly so they can prepare them for burial before the sabbath, so they broke their legs so they would die in the matter of minutes.
“This has led the Jews to put in another plea — that they killed Jesus by the sword, whereas the ancient history of the Jews does not show that Jesus was killed by the sword.”
This I’ve never heard, the Jews made up the story that Jesus’ body was stolen from the tomb, hence the tomb being empty. If this is a scriptural reference give me the verse and such.
Your second to last paragraph is clearly your take on the issue, and is unfounded in the gospels. Pilate’s wife’s vision came before Jesus was crucified, not while he was on the cross. We do not know what the contents of the vision was, we only know that she warned Pilate not to kill him. The writers of the gospels specifically say that Jesus gave up his last breath, not a swoon, not a sleepiness, but breathed his last. It is clear,to take your assumption of the story means Allah tricked men, which means hes the one who created Christianity, and let it thrive for 500years before the new revelation. This is why your narrative of the events makes no sense, and is clearly an embellished story. It clearly has legendary tendencies to it, failing to deal with the actual crucifixion and death narratives that we have. Instead, it reasserts its own facts, idea’s, and assumptions into it. Its easier to accept the narrative, that Jesus was God’s chosen, he died, and he rose again. This doesn’t lead but to one hypothesis, that God rose Jesus from the dead. Thus making the story much less complex, where as your story only leads to more and more questions that cannot be answered by the only source of knowledge on the subject, the gospels. If you are to have me believe that I should take the 500year later Islamic account seriously, and then take your account of the Islamic account seriously, your going to have to provide a very compelling argument.
Brooks
July 12, 2008 at 9:07 pm |
Thank you for your comments. I do have to respectfully disagree with you in the fact of the death of Jesus. The Romans had perfected the art of killing and the soldiers at that time were very efficient. I am sure they had seen death many times and the executioners I am sure had seen it on a very regular basis.
Let us remember what all Jesus went through on the day of his death. He had been up all night in mock trial after mock trial. He had been beaten and mocked. He under went a scourging of 39 lashes with a whip. This was no bull whip. The whip used by the Romans had 7 to 9 “tails”. On the end of each tail was a metal weight. The length of each “tail” was studded with bits of metal and bone.
When a person was hit with the scourge, the bits of metal and bone would sink in to the flesh of the one being scourged and the metal weights would slam into the body creating bruising and possibly broken ribs. As the whip was pulled free of the prisoner, the bits of metal and flesh would tear away pieces of flesh and meat. Lacerations down to the bone could occur. Now image 39 of those strikes onto the back and sides of one man.
After the scourging His (Jesus) back would have been a bloody mass of torn muscle and skin. Blood loss would have been substantial. Then a cloak of purple was placed to cover the bloody mess of His back. He was then made to carry the cross member his hands (wrists more than likely) would have been nailed to through Jerusalem and to the site of the execution. At this point in time exhaustion and blood loss would be taking its toll on anyone.
At the site of Calvary, the robe was ripped off His back reopening the wounds from the scourging. Crucifixion was deliberately designed to kill with the utmost in suffering. Nails (think of a railrod spike about 9 inches long) triangular in shape were driven into wrists right below the palms. Another nail driven through the feet at the ankles. Horrendous suffering and pain as the cross was brutally lifted up and dropped into the hole.
Crucifixion killed primarily by asphyxiation. Since a person was hanging from their arms their chest could not expand to draw in air. In order to breath, Jesus would have to bear his full weight on the single nail through His ankles and “stand” to relieve the pressure on His chest by his arms. A breath or two would be taken then the person on the cross would once again hang from his arms. This would go on until the person could stand no more on the nail and eventually could not breath.
This was why the legs were broken to bring about a more speedy death. As the Romans came around inspecting the prisoners that day they broke the legs of the two criminal beside Jesus, but when they got to Jesus they did not (a fulfillment of Old Testament prophesy).
A spear was plunged into his side and went all the way to the heart. “An issue of blood and water” came out of the hole.
To the Romans, there was no doubt as to the death of Jesus. I think that with their experience they would have been able to identify death when it occurred.
I have often heard the swoon theory but because of the facts stated above I have a very hard time believing Jesus simply passed out and revived later in the tomb
July 12, 2008 at 9:21 pm |
http://blip.tv/file/1034589